Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 3x09 - "Terrarium"

[Frightscape One]

Prime Factors:

JANEWAY: I don't even know where to start. I want you to explain to me how you, of all people, could be involved in this.
TUVOK: It is quite simple, Captain. You have made it clear on many occasions that your highest goal for the crew is to get them home. But in this instance, your standards would not allow you to violate Sikarian law. Someone had to spare you the ethical dilemma. I was the logical choice, and so I chose to act.
JANEWAY: You did it for me because you knew I couldn't.
TUVOK: I accept the consequences of my actions. I expect to loose my commission and to be court-martialled when we return to Federation space.


Sisko made it clear that Jadzia was wrong. That she didn't suffer a reprimand doesn't negate her actions.

Ah, okay, "PRIME FACTORS". I see what you mean. But Janeway didn't do anything to Torres, either. They both got a stern talking to, but that's it. But strictly speaking, they violated the non-interference directive, not violated the planet's trust.


Sisko's talk with Dax before she left is one of the only times I disagreed with him. There was nothing wrong with what she did. Sisko had no jurusdiction in that scenario because it was not in Federation space.

 

[fireproof78]

Ah, okay, "PRIME FACTORS". I see what you mean. But Janeway didn't do anything to Torres, either. They both got a stern talking to, but that's it.


Sisko's talk with Dax before she left is one of the only times I disagreed with him. There was nothing wrong with what she did. Sisko had no jurusdiction in that scenario because it was not in Federation space.

Jadzia was wrong. I agree with Sisko..

As I said, Starfleet officers act in the name of the plot and sometimes they violate laws with no consequences.

 

[Frightscape One]

Jadzia was wrong. I agree with Sisko..

As I said, Starfleet officers act in the name of the plot and sometimes they violate laws with no consequences.

How was she wrong? She helped bring a child killer and wanted criminal, who had evaded everyone for decades, to justice. She was 100% in the right.

 

[Zombie Cheerleader]

The redshirt at the beginning of "Friday's Child(TOS)" pulled his phaser at the first sight of Kras the Klingon. It got the Starfleet officer killed.

The miners and later Starfleet are pretty much in shoot first mode in "Devil In The Dark" until the reveal. The same in "The Man Trap". In both case and in "Terrarium" they think they are dealing with monsters.

 

[GhoulEddie74]

But something something something Starfleet security acts too aggressive.

 

[fireproof78]

But something something something Starfleet security acts too aggressive.

And poor training.


*Glares in Deep Space Nine security officer with poor barrel and trigger discipline*

 

[Yistaan]

Worf did get a reprimand on record for leaving his combadge and going AWOL. There was no need for consequences for him killing Duras because the Klingons considered the matter closed, and it happened on their ship.

Yep, what Worf did was perfectly legal according to Klingon law and he did get a Starfleet reprimand for running off without leave but otherwise no repercussion.

That being said, as a Federation citizen he MASSIVELY violated the Fed's non-interference policy by, you know, killing one of only 2 candidates for the Klingon chancellorship.

Now the Fed didn't really care since they really, really, really didn't want Duras to win. And they obviously didn't care when Worf did the same thing during the Dominion War and killed Gowron to put Martok in power.

But, all else being equal, I'd imagine the Fed would treat Worf VERY differently if he happened to kill a Klingon politician who the Fed really did like.

 

[fireproof78]

How was she wrong? She helped bring a child killer and wanted criminal, who had evaded everyone for decades, to justice. She was 100% in the right.

She violated Federation law:

DAX: I don't have to tell you what this oath meant to Curzon.
SISKO: Jadzia Dax took an oath too, when she joined Starfleet. You're subject to orders, Lieutenant.
DAX: Don't do it, Benjamin. Don't make me disobey a direct order.
SISKO: I never understood this. I mean, whatever else Curzon was, he did have a fundamental morality. He wouldn't condone murder any more than I would, and yet he swore to kill this Albino and now you plan to go out and kill in his name. What about the laws of the Federation?
DAX: The Klingons have their own set of laws. This is justice to them.
SISKO: And to you?
DAX: I've chosen to respect their codes of honour in this matter, yes.
SISKO: You really think you're capable of doing this?
DAX: I don't know. There's only one way to find out, isn't there.
SISKO: Let's say you are. Let's say you even survive this insanity. You expect to just come back here and resume your duties as though nothing's happened?
DAX: I guess that'll be up to you.

 

[Frightscape One]

She violated Federation law:

DAX: I don't have to tell you what this oath meant to Curzon.
SISKO: Jadzia Dax took an oath too, when she joined Starfleet. You're subject to orders, Lieutenant.
DAX: Don't do it, Benjamin. Don't make me disobey a direct order.
SISKO: I never understood this. I mean, whatever else Curzon was, he did have a fundamental morality. He wouldn't condone murder any more than I would, and yet he swore to kill this Albino and now you plan to go out and kill in his name. What about the laws of the Federation?
DAX: The Klingons have their own set of laws. This is justice to them.
SISKO: And to you?
DAX: I've chosen to respect their codes of honour in this matter, yes.
SISKO: You really think you're capable of doing this?
DAX: I don't know. There's only one way to find out, isn't there.
SISKO: Let's say you are. Let's say you even survive this insanity. You expect to just come back here and resume your duties as though nothing's happened?
DAX: I guess that'll be up to you.

Jadzia still didn't violate Federation law. The Albino was wanted by the Klingons, not the Federation. He did all those things in Klingon territory, not Federation. Federation law had no say on anything regarding the Albino. And killing the Albino was not murder.

Under the Klingons, everything he did warranted an execution. Dax was simply helping to carry it out. It may look like murder to some in the Federation, but to another society it's simply justice being delivered.

The ONLY thing that Sisko could get Dax on was if she left without her leave getting approved. Sisko clearly approved later, otherwise she would have gotten a reprimand or something similar.

She was 100% in the right.

We probably should agree to disagree at this point. We're not convincing the other, and I don't want to derail a SNW episode thread further with a DS9 one that doesn't really involve it.

 

[fireproof78]

Jadzia still didn't violate Federation law. The Albino was wanted by the Klingons, not the Federation. He did all those things in Klingon territory, not Federation. Federation law had no say on anything regarding the Albino. And killing the Albino was not murder.

Under the Klingons, everything he did warranted an execution. Dax was simply helping to carry it out. It may look like murder to some in the Federation, but to another society it's simply justice being delivered.

The ONLY thing that Sisko could get Dax on was if she left without her leave getting approved. Sisko clearly approved later, otherwise she would have gotten a reprimand or something similar.

She would have deserved it.

And Sisko clearly thought she was violating the law, so I'll defer to him.

 

[Yistaan]

Jadzia still didn't violate Federation law. The Albino was wanted by the Klingons, not the Federation. He did all those things in Klingon territory, not Federation. Federation law had no say on anything regarding the Albino. And killing the Albino was not murder.

Under the Klingons, everything he did warranted an execution. Dax was simply helping to carry it out. It may look like murder to some in the Federation, but to another society it's simply justice being delivered.

The ONLY thing that Sisko could get Dax on was if she left without her leave getting approved. Sisko clearly approved later, otherwise she would have gotten a reprimand or something similar.

She was 100% in the right.

We probably should agree to disagree at this point. We're not convincing the other, and I don't want to derail a SNW episode thread further with a DS9 one that doesn't really involve it.

While I agree with everything you said, something being legal doesn't automatically make something right or ethical. That's probably why Sisko was disappointed but couldn't do anything to Jadzia.

A good example is Anakin killing the Tuskens in Star Wars. Under Hutt law on Tatooine, this probably isn't illegal. Heck, Jabba might even have given Anakin a medal.

Furthermore Chancellor Palpatine, although he had ulterior motives, never mentioned Anakin breaking any Republic laws when Anakin told him about the Tusken massacre (and it's not clear how Anakin could've anyway as Tatooine is Hutt territory before the Empire).

Anakin DID break the code of conduct for a Jedi and that PROBABLY would've got him kicked out if the Council knew about it (although this is the same Jedi Council that reinstated Quinlan Vos into Masterhood after numerous atrocities so maybe not even), but those aren't laws per se but the rules of a religious group

 

[Frightscape One]

While I agree with everything you said, something being legal doesn't automatically make something right or ethical. That's probably why Sisko was disappointed but couldn't do anything to Jadzia.

A good example is Anakin killing the Tuskens in Star Wars. Under Hutt law on Tatooine, this probably isn't illegal. Heck, Jabba might even have given Anakin a medal.

Furthermore Chancellor Palpatine, although he had ulterior motives, never mentioned Anakin breaking any Republic laws when Anakin told him about the Tusken massacre (and it's not clear how Anakin could've anyway as Tatooine is Hutt territory before the Empire).

Anakin DID break the code of conduct for a Jedi and that PROBABLY would've got him kicked out if the Council knew about it (although this is the same Jedi Council that reinstated Quinlan Vos into Masterhood after numerous atrocities so maybe not even), but those aren't laws per se but the rules of a religious group

In this case, I also believe she did the right and ethical thing as well as the legal thing. The Albino was a child killer, murderer, and pillager of many worlds. The Kang Gang were the ones to finally get him. He got what he deserved.

 

[Starflight]

I don't think there's a precedent for Starfleet personnel having phasers set to kill as a matter of course and shooting the first thing they see. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no indication La'an has reason to suspect a "monster" - or even a Gorn - on the planet with Ortegas, she literally just has her phaser set to kill and shoots the first thing she sees, which is especially stupid given that the only knowledge she has is that it's very low visibility and that Ortegas is somewhere down there.

In other situations where people raised their phasers, they:
a) had a lot more information (they already knew who Klingons were and that hostility was likely)
b) crucially, probably had the phaser set to stun (again, correct me if I'm wrong re: Friday's Child)
c) were often portrayed as panicking or acting against orders (Worf's inexplicable special privilege to always suggest violence, Friday's Child guy acting in fear)
d) weren't on rescue missions to save their friend on pitch-black planets where any vague shape could be Ortegas or, indeed, a fellow survivor

Obviously with stuff like the Horta or Salt Vampire, Starfleet (or civilians) had been attacked with lethal force first and were responding in kind.

 

[Crewman Commander]

I don't think there's a precedent for Starfleet personnel having phasers set to kill as a matter of course and shooting the first thing they see. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no indication La'an has reason to suspect a "monster" - or even a Gorn - on the planet with Ortegas, she literally just has her phaser set to kill and shoots the first thing she sees, which is especially stupid given that the only knowledge she has is that it's very low visibility and that Ortegas is somewhere down there.

In other situations where people raised their phasers, they:
a) had a lot more information (they already knew who Klingons were and that hostility was likely)
b) crucially, probably had the phaser set to stun (again, correct me if I'm wrong re: Friday's Child)
c) were often portrayed as panicking or acting against orders (Worf's inexplicable special privilege to always suggest violence, Friday's Child guy acting in fear)
d) weren't on rescue missions to save their friend on pitch-black planets where any vague shape could be Ortegas or, indeed, a fellow survivor

Obviously with stuff like the Horta or Salt Vampire, Starfleet (or civilians) had been attacked with lethal force first and were responding in kind.

IIRC, Ensign Roger Lemli fires on the cube-shaped device at the end of "That Which Survives," apparently without first adjusting the settings of his phaser, immediately after beaming down, in response to Kirk's order to Spock to destroy the computer. What's stun going to do in this case? (Rhetorical question.)

Granted, Spock would have known they were beaming into a potentially hostile environment with crew already dead and the ship having been put in danger. He could have ordered phasers set to kill. But there were still a lot of unknowns, and there was nothing to do with this that occurred on screen.

I apologize, but I'm away from home right now and unable to confirm the sequence of events, but someone can check me.

 

[Frightscape One]

It's also quite possible that the Gorn's injuries from before were bad enough that stun hits from a phaser would kill it, rather than a phaser set to kill. (We've seen it in the franchise before.)

 

[V'Lias]

It's also quite possible that the Gorn's injuries from before were bad enough that stun hits from a phaser would kill it, rather than a phaser set to kill. (We've seen it in the franchise before.)

While the stun setting alone could have killed it, the phaser bolts that were being fired were red, which in SNW indicates a kill setting. The stun settings on their phasers emit blue bolts. Unless by chance it was a VFX error that was missed.

 

[Frightscape One]

While the stun setting alone could have killed it, the phaser bolts that were being fired were red, which in SNW indicates a kill setting. The stun settings on their phasers emit blue bolts. Unless by chance it was a VFX error that was missed.

Visual effects errors have definitely happened in the past, so it's possible.

Another possibility is La'an very quickly switched from stun to kill setting on the phaser when she saw the Gorn. (We do know she has very fast reflexes, and the setting can be switched with one flick.) Considering that every single encounter with the Gorn has been a deadly one, and the Gorn was right on Ortegas, I can't fault La'an at all. In fact, if La'an DID hesitate, she would have been responsible for Ortegas getting killed had that Gorn been hostile. La'an made the right call, though tragic in the end.

In either case, it was tragic but other than Ortegas saying immediately after coming out of the pod that the Gorn she was with friendly, this was unavoidable.

 

[Starflight]

Another possibility is La'an very quickly switched from stun to kill setting on the phaser when she saw the Gorn. (We do know she has very fast reflexes, and the setting can be switched with one flick.) Considering that every single encounter with the Gorn has been a deadly one, and the Gorn was right on Ortegas, I can't fault La'an at all. In fact, if La'an DID hesitate, she would have been responsible for Ortegas getting killed had that Gorn been hostile. La'an made the right call, though tragic in the end.

The security team's phasers were also set to kill, iirc.

It feels almost like there must have been a line cut from the episode; a lot of this could have been averted if they'd just had a scan of the planet show there was a Gorn, and Pike reluctantly authorise phasers on kill as a result (though even then they'd need to somehow establish that stun isn't viable).

 

[Frightscape One]

The security team's phasers were also set to kill, iirc.

It feels almost like there must have been a line cut from the episode; a lot of this could have been averted if they'd just had a scan of the planet show there was a Gorn, and Pike reluctantly authorise phasers on kill as a result (though even then they'd need to somehow establish that stun isn't viable).

Could very well have been an editing issue or a line cut.

I believe SNW already established that stun doesn't really work on the Gorn. That's why Pike had that crate of new weapons designed specifically for the Gorn opened up in another episode. (I believe it was "Hegemony".)

 

[GhoulEddie74]

In TOS stun was often shown as a green beam or burst of light, except when it was blue.