Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x08 - "Under the Cloak of War"

[jackoverfull]

Somebody did. Not sure you're reading the whole thread or just picking and choosing who to verbally harass. You're also being willfully obtuse in order to continue beating a dead horse.

I didn’t see it, but I did skip some pages.
Sorry you feel you have to resort to name-calling, but I’m not the one beating a dead (and illegal under any modern jurisdiction) horse here.

I've found the tweet again:
"me starting snw: its my boy m’benga!!!! can’t wait to hear his stories of his intership in vulcan snw: m’benga is an ex war terrorist à la steve rogers"
followed by:
"the marvelification of star trek needs to stop im so serious"
Ignoring whether or not it's actually true, I don't see the relevance of Marvel. Do they think only Marvel has war criminals?

Some people don’t like when characters are expanded, I guess. It *did* feel a bit strange when in the season opener M’Benga and Chapel were suddenly presented as super soldiers, but they did well expanding on that in the rest of the season.

And I mean, Picard showed no interest in archeology until several seasons into TNG, when suddenly it was an important plot point.

 

[cooleddie74]

And Kirk wasn't a father with a scientist son until TWOK, seventeen years after Roddenberry created the character.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

I didn’t see it, but I did skip some pages.
Sorry you feel you have to resort to name-calling, but I’m not the one beating a dead (and illegal under any modern jurisdiction) horse here.

Sweetie, telling someone you feel like they're being willfully obtuse is not name-calling. Do you not understand the word "obtuse?" Calling someone an "asshole" would be name calling.

 

[Tallguy]

We watched All Those Who Wander tonight. Chapel didn't seem quite as combat ready as one might now expect. Although going through Jurassic Park rather than Saving Private Ryan might produce different reactions.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Sweetie, telling someone you feel like they're being willfully obtuse is not name-calling. Do you not understand the word "obtuse?" Calling someone an "asshole" would be name calling.

Calling someone “willfully obtuse” is a wordy equivalent of stupid. Not flaming but awfully damn close. Also the “sweetie” jab is intentionally demeaning. Cut the crap.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Calling someone “willfully obtuse” is a wordy equivalent of stupid. Not flaming but awfully damn close. Also the “sweetie” jab is intentionally demeaning. Cut the crap.

Got it boss.

 

[DaveyNY]

Actually, "Willfully Obtuse" means that a person is being accused of purposely misunderstanding or ignoring the core issue being discussed.

It has never meant in that instance that someone was "stupid".

Quite the opposite in fact, since it takes some modicum of intelligence to pull it off.

Obtuse by itself can mean dull witted or slow, but in the context used above it's pretty much contradictory to that definition.

 

[Sci]

It's interesting to see how viewers seem to have understood some of the key plot points of the episode differently. It didn't even cross my mind that M'Benga would actually include his rampage in the official report. I thought it was very clear that he was ashamed of what he'd done and kept it a secret for all those years, with only Christine knowing about what had happened.

I suppose part of the reason it seemed likely to me that he had reported in is that, in the moment, he didn't seem ashamed of his attack. He seemed to think it was necessary and justified.

He picked a fight with a former soldier that killed three of his best men at the same time, how in all his experience as a general would he not see what he was doing as suicude?

I think it is entirely possible that Dak'Rah was intentionally committing suicide-by-M'Benga.

The episode was directed in a way, whether intentional or not, to show that M'Benga did indeed murder Rah.

No. It was directed in such a way as to be ambiguous as to exactly what happened.

The director showed M'Benga opening the box carrying the Knife after M'Benga says 'Rah never paid for his crimes"

Chapel lies. She claims she saw the whole thing, but she only walked in during the midst of it and what we saw doesn't line up with her description of events.

Pike being shocked that Rah supposedly physically attacked M'Benga. Nu Pike can generally read people and situations quite well. And the look from La'an and Christine's flimsy excuse all make it appear like they know M'Benga did it, but it's being covered up. Christine portraying Rah as some brutal animal with darkness in his heart that couldn't control himself... when Rah was more of a coward and even admitted to it. He was even in tears during that last scene. The director made some choices there.

M'Benga's vague words at the end that he 'didn't start the fight' ...referring to the war itself, not the specific situation.

That is a legitimate interpretation of events, but it is only an interpretation. It is not objectively empirical.

More recently Seven just beams down to that casino during the mess of Picard S1 and opens fire, and then executes people prompted by vengeance.... months later is Captain of the Enterprise.

Two years later, actually. And Seven's actions occurred on a world where there was no rule of law.

And the best part of this whole thing is that unless the producers decide to show us what really happened behind that frosted partition in a flashback sequence then we can see it exactly how we want it and we're not necessarily wrong in our individual take on the incident.

Yep. Some folks really can't handle plot ambiguity.

 

[ichab]

No it wasn't and no it didn't.

Rah could have been intentionally or unintentionally stabbed. We don't which as we didn't see what actually happened.


They showed the audience the knife was there but they never showed who grabbed it during the scuffle. How Rah ended up getting stabbed is left ambiguous.

Yes. The episode gives enough evidence to point to M'Benga snapping and killing Rah. BUT! It also gives enough evidence that Rah could have been trying to kill M'Benga for knowing he was a fraud and ended up being unintentionally stabbed in a scuffle over the knife. I mean... Rah was the one facing the knife. Not M'Benga. There was Rah's reaction when M'Benga revealed he was the "Butcher of J'Gal". Rah whined about if people knew the truth about him his work, which was based on lies, would be undone. There's also the fact he got increasingly more aggressive towards M'Benga before they started scuffling.

Even the dialogue during the scuffle we don't see is ambiguous as to who was trying to stab who. For instance M'Benga's "Get your hands off!" can be interpreted as him telling Rah to take his hands off of him or off of the knife.


Part of the reason for her lie was to give a explanation for why the Butcher of J'Gal's knife was onboard the Enterprise.

I have a feeling this event will be revisited in season 3 and be the reason M'Benga leaves the ship.

 

[T'Bonz]

I'm temporarily closing this until tomorrow when I can deal with it properly. I've been out all day. If I dealt with it now, I'd throw warnings around like confetti. God forbid people act like adults.

 

[T'Bonz]

OK guys. I'm in a more reasonable frame of mine than I was last night and I STILL threw three warnings, for you guys being personal.

One each for jackoverfull, Farscape One, and a late one for Captain Jollydark's late addition.

If you cannot stop with the personal crap, you will be sitting out. We will also start thread banning if necessary.

I would suggest in future, if self-control is lacking, then put the other person ON IGNORE. It will save you a world of aggravation if you cannot refrain from getting into a fight.

Because I'm getting tired of logging on and seeing loads of notifications for stupid shit. Take notice.

To the rest of you, my apologies for having to shut the thread. I didn't want it to escalate while I slept and HAD A FREAKIN' LIFE until I could get back on here.

It's reopened now.

 

[DaveyNY]

The drama that abounded was almost in perfect harmony with this particular episode.

Good thing only T'Bonz is able to wield a D'k tahg around here.

 

[4Lights]

This has been my favorite episode of the season. Loved the ending. reminds of when Data 'pulled the trigger.'

 

[TRON JA307020]

This has been my favorite episode of the season. Loved the ending. reminds of when Data 'pulled the trigger.'

Yeah except M'Benga was successful. That ep with Data was excellent. Fasio was a complete A hole.

 

[cooleddie74]

For the record: Data wouldn't have been wrong.

 

[Bold Helmsman]

On an entirely separate note, is there some particular reason why the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps don't seem to have their own ships? Why are diplomats always begging rides from Starfleet ships?

 

[Nerys Myk]

On an entirely separate note, is there some particular reason why the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps don't seem to have their own ships? Why are diplomats always begging rides from Starfleet ships?

Gets them in the setting and interacting with the characters of the show,
In-universe, I assume it’s one of the duties of a Starfleet vessel,

 

[Racefuel]

On an entirely separate note, is there some particular reason why the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps don't seem to have their own ships? Why are diplomats always begging rides from Starfleet ships?

Starfleet is a combined service, and as part of Starfleets diplomatic core, it is natural that a starfleet vessel be their transport. I'm sure they also travel on civilian ships (the NAR's) when needed also.

 

[cooleddie74]

Ambassador Kollos of Medusa and Dr. Miranda Jones were taken off the Enterprise by a Medusan vessel that strongly resembled a Starfleet ship but could well have been a "civilian" Medusan vessel that just used Starfleet-style warp nacelles and design cues.

 

[Unique]

For the record: Data wouldn't have been wrong.

I rewatched that yesterday because of this discussion. Data made the correct call.