Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x08 - "Under the Cloak of War"

[Richard S. Ta]

Tensions riding high in Ye Olde Grand Star Trek Hotel.

 

[Noname Given]

It’s not that hard to understand that killing someone who is verbally harassing you is wrong. That doesn’t seem “privilege” to me, just one of the basis of society.

M'Benga didn't kill him because he was verbally abusive. One of two things happened:

1 - The Klingon went for the knife, and attempted to kill Dr M'Benga because he believed (after the doctor rejected his request to work with him), that if the truth about who the real Butcher of Jgal was became public; his career/ usefulness to the Federation would end, and he was out to silence Dr N'Benga; and Dr M'Benga killed him in self-defense.

2 - after informing the Klingon that he was not interested in working with him; after giving the Klingon what he saw as a chance to leave, Dr M'Benga either snapped mentally because of his PTSD, or after his speaking with the Klingon, decided to complete the mission he started years earlier and as he saw it deliver some justice to the victims of Rhal's orders given on J'gal all those years earlier.

If it was indeed number two, (which after viewing the episode I believe is the case), yes Dr M"Benga is guilty of murder and deprived the Klingon General of any Federation form of legal due process.

But, without concrete proof, or his outright confession , M'Benga also cannot be prosecuted. It's possible they may do a follow-up and we'll see firsthand what the results of any Starfleet or Federation inquiry into this matter.

Barring that, from the final conversation between Dr M'Benga and Captain Pike; again if it was number two, it's clear M'Benga can live with a decision he made, and Captain Pike is not willing to look into the matter further on his own. Pike will accept whatever ruling (if any) Starfleet or the Federation make.

 

[Farscape One]

M'Benga didn't kill him because he was verbally abusive.

Completely agreed, which was one of the points I was making in this thread.

 

[Mudd]

Yeah, Pike's not jumping aboard the "Starfleet will have to get past me" train like he did with Una, is he?

The Claudine Longet Invitational

 

[jackoverfull]

My statement was 'what the hell'... as in, 'what the hell is your problem making it personal and saying that'. I never made it personal with you. I was asking you some legitimate questions about self-defense, harassment, etc. And you come at me, TWICE, with 'perhaps I should kill you/prepare a blade'.

It's clear you want to make it personal, so I'm done with you on the episode.

Not big on analogies, are we?
Sorry if you think I made it personal, for me it’s not, at all.

Please don't quote or respond to me again on this episode

I guess you’ll have to kill me.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.

 

[jackoverfull]

M'Benga didn't kill him because he was verbally abusive. One of two things happened:

indeed. But someone up in this thread keep saying that the ambassador being abusive is the issue, which isn’t at all.

If it was indeed number two, (which after viewing the episode I believe is the case), yes Dr M"Benga is guilty of murder and deprived the Klingon General of any Federation form of legal due process

Agreed.

But, without concrete proof, or his outright confession , M'Benga also cannot be prosecuted.

Unfortunately, thanks (apparently) to him lying and Chapel backing such lie.

By the way, we don’t know 100% that M’Benga is lying, but Christine definitely is and that in itself is quite worrying.

 

[Farscape One]

Not big on analogies, are we?
Sorry if you think I made it personal, for me it’s not, at all.
I guess you’ll have to kill me.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Actually, I use analogies quite often. But yours was unnecessary... the point could have been easily made by using other examples.

And I was going to accept your word that it wasn't personal, but then you go off and make a joke like that.

Seriously, DO NOT quote me or respond to me on this thread again.

 

[Noname Given]

By the way, we don’t know 100% that M’Benga is lying, but Christine definitely is and that in itself is quite worrying.

To be honest we don't know whether or not either of them is lying. Yes Christine Chapel had a clearer view once M'Benga and the Klingon were actually fighting, but she may not have seen the actual start of the fight itself, so she's just backing up whatever M'Benga says.

 

[Mudd]

Yep, Christine's not gonna throw M'Benga under the bus for putting Dak'Rah down.

 

[cooleddie74]

I mean...I would. I serve with him and trust him. I'm sure not likely to jump at the chance to believe the side of a former Klingon military commander who ordered the deaths of untold numbers of my fellow citizens.

 

[Set Harth]

And Picard got his artificial heart in the 24th century... that's about 50 years in the future of this episode.

More like 68 years to be precise.

 

[Farscape One]

More like 68 years to be precise.

Very true. Either way, it's a long time for advancements in medicine to occur.

 

[cooleddie74]

68 years ago heart transplants period weren't even a thing. That didn't happen for the first time until about 56 years ago.

CAT scans were barely even a thing when I was born in 1974 and now we have medical imaging that makes CAT scans look like a gallery of primitive 19th century photography.

 

[jackoverfull]

Actually, I use analogies quite often. But yours was unnecessary... the point could have been easily made by using other examples.

I did ask you to stop. Several times. You didn’t. I’m not taking that personally, but the analogy seems quite appropriate to me.

And I was going to accept your word that it wasn't personal, but then you go off and make a joke like that.

Seriously, DO NOT quote me or respond to me on this thread again.

Then why do you keep answering?

To be honest we don't know whether or not either of them is lying. Yes Christine Chapel had a clearer view once M'Benga and the Klingon were actually fighting, but she may not have seen the actual start of the fight itself, so she's just backing up whatever M'Benga says.

Well no, Christine testified that she “saw the whole thing” and that’s just no true.

I mean...I would. I serve with him and trust him. I'm sure not likely to jump at the chance to believe the side of a former Klingon military commander who ordered the deaths of untold numbers of my fellow citizens.

She didn’t have to believe anything, she could just have told pike what she saw when she came in, instead she said that she witnessed the whole exchange, which isn't true.

 

[fireproof78]

I do expect heads to roll, and Christine and M'Benga to not be in season 3.

 

[Noname Given]

...Well no, Christine testified that she “saw the whole thing” and that’s just no true.

She didn’t have to believe anything, she could just have told pike what she saw when she came in, instead she said that she witnessed the whole exchange, which isn't true.

It's perfectly realistic that she may have believed that she saw everything. That doesn't mean she did; it means that she believes she did. So she may in fact not be lying as far as she is concerned.

It's well known that eyewitness testimony is not always the best testimony if there are other sources available.

 

[fireproof78]

I’m not taking that personally, but the analogy seems quite appropriate to me.

Implying a threat to harm someone is not appropriate regardless of the analogical intention. It's...strange.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Not big on analogies, are we?
Sorry if you think I made it personal, for me it’s not, at all.
I guess you’ll have to kill me.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.

See, right there? Harassment. Nobody is going to kill you for it but dude, come on! Imagine asking a war criminal to leave repeatedly, begging him to leave you alone, and he keeps doing shit like that.
Somebody snaps, somebody does not regret the results of that snap. It didn't look like M'Benga was trying to hide anything from his Captain, including the fact that he wasn't sorry Rah was dead. What Christine said is a different matter, but La'an confirmed that the evidence and the timing lined up with their statements.

I guess, I'm not saying an inquest isn't warranted (maybe S3), or that it might technically be a criminal act - only that, given the circumstances, I'm not losing sleep over those circumstances. And I don't think M'Benga should go to prison for it. Whatever else happens, he seems willing to accept the consequences. He feels that justice has been served. And it was NEVER about harassment.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Remember Chapel was the only character in monochrome on the promo posters for Season 2.

She may be departing and so may M’Benga. We know from Hemmer (and I suppose TOS) that only Spock and Uhura stick around in the long term.

 

[Farscape One]

As I said already, just because someone harass you it’s no justification to kill them. It’s not that hard.
once more, as an example of people *harassing* others, aka not leaving or repeatedly coming back after being told to leave, trying to convert people who stated plenty of times they are not interested. Irritating? Exhausting? Sure. But still no justification for murder.


Actually yes, some ten years ago. I started my own investigation on who this mad guy was and once I discovered his identity I went to the police, NOT to his house with a gun.
all very bad stuff but in no jurisdiction justification for killing someone.

And I already gave you a simple, straightforward answer. Multiple times. Even before you answered.
For the record, once again, harassing is obviously wrong, but killing someone who harass you isn’t justified.
Are you implying that women should kill harassers?

Even so, as stated plenty of times by several people, it likely goes from excess of defence to negligence.

glad you finally got that I never wrote anything on the contrary.


And here we go again…
There is a concept that’s called reasonable force. If you kick someone trying to rob you that’s usually reasonable force, if you take out a gun and shoot him dead it is not in most jurisdictions.


The makers of the show say otherwise.

Or it can be a process. Things are not black and white.
We don’t really know how things went as of now.

Yeah, in Star Trek a stab to the heart is always fatal.
Wait, don’t Klingons have multiple hearts? And didn’t a certain character receive a stab to the heart in a bar and survive?

most certainly for you, many disagree.

People misjudge. And if someone can’t restrain themselves from killing they definitely shouldn’t be put in the position to do harm.

you don’t know that.

As I wrote already.

This is extremely questionable.

The Klingons had no interest in trying to revive him, though.
on the contrary: like in the episode you seem only to see what you want to see. And you kept pestering me on something that was never an issue and I had already answered several times. Perhaps I should tell you to stop and kill you if you don’t.

You don’t know this is what happened.
And again you are pestering me with questions about things that have nothing to do with the issue here and hat I never questioned.


Bold of you to assume I’ve never been in a self-defence situation.
to you.

He obviously thought he could sway M’Benga and didn’t expect to die?

No really.

Once more, you are only seeing what you want to see into something that’s intentionally left unclear.

as said by multiple people, and also by the showmakers, the scene is shot in a way to intentionally leave doubt on what happened.

It could have been straight up murder, and if it was M’Benga was totally responsible of that.
It could have been self defence, but this brings up the issue of excess of force and not trying to revive the ambassador.
It could have even been suicide, but then why would M’Benga and Chapel lie?

You decided that for you it’s clearly the second option, but this is not “clear” to most, as, as said, the scene is intentionally left open to doubt.

sorry, I lost you here.

Yawhn, here we go with putting words into my mouth again. I already asked you to stop, should I prepare a blade?

And, once more (how many times should I write this?) I never said it was.

Indeed, what the hell? What sane person kills someone bothering them? Getting it now maybe?

and literally nobody said otherwise.

By all means! But this was not the case in the episode. And, as mentioned above, things are hardly black and white.
If such theoretical person killed their abuser after years of being abused they would *probably* be found not guilty of homicide due to the circumstances. But they would definitely have to get trough a trial.

My statement was 'what the hell'... as in, 'what the hell is your problem making it personal and saying that'. I never made it personal with you. I was asking you some legitimate questions about self-defense, harassment, etc. And you come at me, TWICE, with 'perhaps I should kill you/prepare a blade'.

It's clear you want to make it personal, so I'm done with you on the episode.

Please don't quote or respond to me again on this episode.

Not big on analogies, are we?
Sorry if you think I made it personal, for me it’s not, at all.
I guess you’ll have to kill me.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Actually, I use analogies quite often. But yours was unnecessary... the point could have been easily made by using other examples.

And I was going to accept your word that it wasn't personal, but then you go off and make a joke like that.

Seriously, DO NOT quote me or respond to me on this thread again.

I did ask you to stop. Several times. You didn’t. I’m not taking that personally, but the analogy seems quite appropriate to me.

Then why do you keep answering?


Well no, Christine testified that she “saw the whole thing” and that’s just no true.

She didn’t have to believe anything, she could just have told pike what she saw when she came in, instead she said that she witnessed the whole exchange, which isn't true.

I quoted every single post you responded to me on or quoted me. And not once did you ask me to leave you alone.

I asked you DIRECTLY to not quote or respond to me again in this thread. TWICE!

Leave me the fuck alone and stop trolling.