Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x08 - "Under the Cloak of War"

[Mr Awe]

It seems a bit more nuanced than that. Although they were definitely trying to keep it ambiguous as to what actually transpired.

I felt like the show was pulling its punches at the end by obscuring what actually happened. Much stronger if they actually showed M'Benga presumably knifing the ambassador. M'Benga killed a butcher, is that OK? Nice grey area.

Instead it's a bit watered down with various ambiguities about what happened. Not clear who really started it, etc.

But fantastic episode regardless that brought to life the horrors of war while it's happening along with the effects that never go away.

 

[parsonsm]

So i think its obvious that when MBenga refers to 'I didn't start the fight' he is referring to the war, and that the fight started a long time ago but never ended until this point.

However his conversation with Pike at the end, I believe he is really talking about Justice for himself. He was the butcher, the man who lost control and became what he feared most, and he cannot overcome that guilt. His horror at the events is what leads to his anxiety attack in the sonic shower.

But, if he was the Butcher, did he kill children as well? Do we take it that far?

'The massacre of Colony Athos' - This is MBenga - attempting to complete the mission?

This also explains his reaction at the Dinner, for he knows that antipathy that is directed at Dak'Rah is, in many ways, misdirected. If only his colleagues knew the truth.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But, if he was the Butcher, did he kill children as well? Do we take it that far?

Rah ordered the slaughter of the Civilians, Women, & Children.

M'Benga had to become a monster in return to stop their monsterous action.

Rah was a coward who escaped from combat to save his own hide.

 

[cooleddie74]

We have no reason to believe M'Benga killed anyone other than adult or at least of-age Klingon soldiers and personnel so I think he kept his targets limited to nothing but combatants. Rah on the other hand was clearly responsible for a whole lot of Federation deaths that weren't limited to just Starfleet officers and troops.

 

[parsonsm]

We have no reason to believe M'Benga killed anyone other than adult or at least of-age Klingon soldiers and personnel so I think he kept his targets limited to nothing but combatants. Rah on the other hand was clearly responsible for a whole lot of Federation deaths that weren't limited to just Starfleet officers and troops.

Perhaps this is the case. I hope so for sure.
I do think its a grey area however, at least that is my interpretation.
'Allied' Troops have done terrible things in the past to achieve 'victory.'

I do think however that whatever the actual truth is here, we see signs of developments that might lead to his eventual step down as CMO to server under McCoy.

 

[firehawk12]

It might be one of those contested planets where both UFP & Klingon Civilians occupied it in the past and started growing their colonies.

Kind of like how in the Cardassian Neutral zone, you have Cardassian civilian colonists & UFP colonists.

It's possible, although it would make me wonder why Michael didn't know how to deal with the Klingons in the very first episode of Discovery. I dunno, best not to think about it I guess. lol

There might not have been "Space Superiority", ergo control of the Space around it might have been contested.

That's possible, but it really did seem like the Klingons were basically going to win the war during Discovery S1. Who knows... they were evacuating at the end, so they must have had ships around somewhere I guess.

Klingons just seem to love fighting. They live for the fight, the battle, the combat.

I don't get how Klingons are supposed to be this bad ass warrior race if they are always depicted as tactical idiots. lol

Remember, kamikaze attacks are a "Last Ditch" weapon. They aren't the first option in combat.

It's incredibly wasteful of resources to warp your vessel into something.

Tell that to the Jem Hadar though. lol

 

[Mr Awe]

Well, we "know" the Enterprise loses M'Benga and Chapel eventually. This could set up why. Hopeful not for a long time, though.

Yeah, I'm enjoying both M'Benga and Chapel so much that I don't want them to leave until right near the end of the series! Both are fantastic actors.

 

[Unique]

Definitely agree that SNW hasn't shied away from that. But I do think it was odd how nonplussed Pike was. "Ah, there might be an inquiry . . ." but basically no big deal. We'll see. Thought it was a great episode though! But the ending was a little soft in my opinion.

Nonplussed means to be so surprised and confused that you don’t know how to react. For some reason, using it the opposite way has become common.

 

[Unique]

This is before the Klingon High Council so all he'd have to be is born to the right House.

Ah, like the British back in the day.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

We have no reason to believe M'Benga killed anyone other than adult or at least of-age Klingon soldiers and personnel so I think he kept his targets limited to nothing but combatants. Rah on the other hand was clearly responsible for a whole lot of Federation deaths that weren't limited to just Starfleet officers and troops.

At the beginning when Ortegas is talking about how Rah supposedly killed his own soldiers to escape and then says he's known as the butcher of J'Gal those two statements kind of get conflated later when M'Benga calls himself the butcher of J'Gal but he's really talking about killing Rah's troops in order to get to Rah (who manages to slip away and is later captured). Then Rah basically embraces the rumors about himself to build the story of his redemption. And I'm not convinced he wasn't trying to redeem himself, but certainly M'Benga was justified in calling him out for it, for how he was trying to buy his redemption through the appropriation of others lived experiences.

 

[fireproof78]

It's possible, although it would make me wonder why Michael didn't know how to deal with the Klingons in the very first episode of Discovery. I dunno, best not to think about it I guess. lol

Because her trauma informed her response.

I don't get how Klingons are supposed to be this bad ass warrior race if they are always depicted as tactical idiots. lol

They're hardy.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Well, after watching the ending a second time, there is a real possibility that Starfleet considers the matter closed.

No DNA evidence on the knife points to M'Benga.
M'Benga DID ask him to leave before the fight started.
Pike obviously bought the lie that M'Benga calling Rah a war criminal set the latter off.
La'an stated that her security logs back up the timeline of events as they've been presented.

Whether it was self-defense or not, it looks like M'Benga gets away with it pretty clean. And we've established that Chapel has some definite moral gray areas- she basically flat-out lied to her superiors to cover for M'Benga. She'd better not ever have to place her hand on the circular light of truth thingy about this, or she's going to be in trouble.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

We have no reason to believe M'Benga killed anyone other than adult or at least of-age Klingon soldiers and personnel so I think he kept his targets limited to nothing but combatants. Rah on the other hand was clearly responsible for a whole lot of Federation deaths that weren't limited to just Starfleet officers and troops.

He might be prefer to not kill if possible.
Ergo, he giving up being a Special Ops guy and going back to being a Doctor.

It's possible, although it would make me wonder why Michael didn't know how to deal with the Klingons in the very first episode of Discovery. I dunno, best not to think about it I guess. lol

Michael was sheltered with a Vulcan Up-Bringing and special tutelage under Captain Phillipa Georgiou.
On-top of that, Captain Phillipa Georgious stated that almost nobody in the UFP has seen a Klingon in ~100 years after Archer's era.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

We haven't discussed Christine Chapel's reactions to the situation much.

I thought Jess Bush did an amazing job, both in the flashbacks and at the dinner where she thinks she can handle it, but the tension keeps building, and Spock, bless his heart, does his best to help her out but ultimately he can't because he has no frame of reference. It's like being disabled (or black and a woman in this country) it's just so much work to explain sometimes. And why should you have to?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Ah, like the British back in the day.

Yeah, DISCO even said the War was less Federation vs. Klingons than Federation versus 14 Separate Houses.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Michael was sheltered with a Vulcan Up-Bringing and special tutelage under Captain Phillipa Georgiou.
On-top of that, Captain Phillipa Georgious stated that almost nobody in the UFP has seen a Klingon in ~100 years after Archer's era.

I thought that was the whole point of the "Vulcan Hello." She did know how (or believed she knew how) because of the Vulcans previous encounter. Am I misremembering?

 

[TerryTrek]

Pike is hopelessly optimistic. And he's never been to war.

That's the one thing I didn't like about this one. Continually writing Pike as the naive 'boyscout.' He shouldn't have let M'Benga get away with justifying what he did. TNG Picard wasn't much of a wartime Captain but if his officers committed obvious murder aboard his ship, he would have reacted a lot harsher.

However this is the same Nu Pike that recognized that Georgiou was a sadistic space Hitler that murdered millions, and gave her a smile and a wink.

Give this guy a backbone. We got about 2 minutes of Pike having one during that brief sequence in 2x04 when he ironically lost his memories. He has been super passive this season. Way too subdued.

I wanted to see a heated debate between Pike and M'Benga, it felt justified with such a serious situation here.

Well, after watching the ending a second time, there is a real possibility that Starfleet considers the matter closed.

No DNA evidence on the knife points to M'Benga.
M'Benga DID ask him to leave before the fight started.
Pike obviously bought the lie that M'Benga calling Rah a war criminal set the latter off.
La'an stated that her security logs back up the timeline of events as they've been presented.

Whether it was self-defense or not, it looks like M'Benga gets away with it pretty clean. And we've established that Chapel has some definite moral gray areas- she basically flat-out lied to her superiors to cover for M'Benga. She'd better not ever have to place her hand on the circular light of truth thingy about this, or she's going to be in trouble.

Yup, they all covered to protect him.

I can't buy that Pike is so dumb that he doesn't recognize that M'Benga obviously murdered Rah. Nu Pike can generally read people quite well.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's possible, but it really did seem like the Klingons were basically going to win the war during Discovery S1. Who knows... they were evacuating at the end, so they must have had ships around somewhere I guess.

The UFP was winning the ~1 year Federation-Klingon War (2256-57) until the USS Discovery vanished into the Mirror Universe and the Mirror ISS Discovery got destroyed when it popped out into our Universe where it got jumped by Klingons.

I don't get how Klingons are supposed to be this bad ass warrior race if they are always depicted as tactical idiots. lol

Not everybody at the lower levels are that smart, some are out-right dumb.
Just recently, a low level Private (Travis King) walked into North Korea deliberately.

Tell that to the Jem Hadar though. lol

Different cultures, different values.
Jem Hadar are considered "Expendable" to some degree.

 

[Unique]

I thought that was the whole point of the "Vulcan Hello." She did know how (or believed she knew how) because of the Vulcans previous encounter. Am I misremembering?

That’s what I remember.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Yeah, DISCO even said the War was less Federation vs. Klingons than Federation versus 14 Separate Houses.

It was 24 seperate houses with 24 different "Friendly Competitions of Domination" on who can take out the Federation the fastest.

But before the fracture of leadership and the power vacuum, they were acting as a unified Klingon Force

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Federation-Klingon_War_(2256-57)

At the same time, the ISS Discovery exchanged places with its counterpart, was attacked by Klingon forces, and was destroyed, leading Starfleet to believe that its Discovery had been lost. Without the cloak-penetrating algorithm or the vital asset that Discovery had become, the Federation was unable to hold back the Klingon forces. In addition, having lost another unifying leader, the Klingons were no longer acting as a single force – instead, the twenty-four Houses competed for dominance by seeing which House could destroy the most Federation assets. The attacks were indiscriminate, targeting hospitals, civilians, and food convoys