Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x03 - "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"

[Verteron]

I mean, TOS never mentions Sybok or Michael either.

Spock never mentioned Sybok because he was ashamed of him, and I'm coming around to the idea that Discovery and the Spore Drive may have never existed in the TOS original timeline. As to whether you want to put TNG/VOY/DS9 in the original TOS or this slightly altered version, I leave that as an exercise. Time is sticky, as we just learned, it's possible that they may be the same in both.

 

[FreezeC77]

So basically then La'an never existed in the TOS universe and Wrath of Khan where Khan himself (in WoK) outright says he fled Earth in 1996.

Meaning that the Spock of TOS never knew anyone by the name of La'an Noonien Singh because TOS was in the old timeline. Which means that SNW's claim to being a prequel to TOS falls apart because of Spock's friendship with a character in SNW that never existed in TOS.

Ok, this is confusing.

The confusing thing about Star Trek and time travel is how they have parallel universes/worlds/multi-verse theory co-existing with also one time-line that erases and rewrites the present/future for changes in the past.

 

[Yistaan]

I mean, TOS never mentions Sybok or Michael either.

Uhura isn't Spock and might have said something about La'an.

 

[vulcancicada]

The Guardian also seems to be a temporal device hidden from the rest of the galaxy, on purpose. So I'm not worried about it.

Time travel needs to be banned, and banned hard.

Time travel bans probably don't apply to sentient time machines that do whatever they want and how they want.

Kind of feel like time travel is only okay if the guardian does it. He's all romantic and mysterious about it. Corporeal beings are always doing it out of greed.

Pfft! I bet your money is still made out of paper.

I think USD is actually made of fabric. It smells delicious anyway...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The glass looking building they walk beside as they joke about who gets to wear the watch is the Royal Ontario Museum, which is a block or so away from it... so at least their semi-random wandering makes sense there.

I love the ROM. Its entrance looks like a crashed Borg cube.

Yup, it's dead, Jim.

Never to be seen again.

And people are OK with this? They've basically said that TOS never happened and thus it doesn't count anymore. I'd have thought there'd be a tad more vitriol.

Oh well. At least they made it a specific plot event that created the new timeline. So there's that.

Does sorta beg the question though, what about the other series? Which timeline do THEY take place in? TOS is out, obviously. TNG and DS9 both used the TOS aesthetic at times (Relics, Trials and Tribble-ations) so they might be next to get the axe. The only problem with that is the TNG bridge appeared in PIC and it looked exactly the same as it did in TNG, which would seem to be unlikely. Also VOY time travelled to the 90's without any overt evidence of the wars so it's probably out too.

Since DSC and PIC are/were being made today, they probably take place in the "second" timeline, even though Jeffrey Hunter's image turns up in a DSC ep.

 

[jackoverfull]

Wow, this was truly amazing!

A fantastic episode of Star Trek and possibly the best SNW episode yet.

I love how carefully constructed the plot is, I felt Khan was going to be involved but I didn’t expect this to end up a “kill hitler, destroy the future” situation, which is classic SF but a first for Star Trek.

Also, the temporal Cold War is back with revenge! And Kirk winning money with chess was genius (he must have won a lot: that was a nice hotel room)!
And I guess not having a clutch to deal with helped his driving…

So it’s confirmed: modern Trek takes place in a slightly different timeline, with the eugenic wars happening decades later (and Khan vein in Toronto for some reason!) due to the temporal Cold War. This is a thing that has been long in the coming, nice they finally went there.
Also, the idea that the timeline gradually repairs itself is new to televised Star Trek but was actually already present in the Abrams movies.

On another note, I really loved how much they managed to cram into the episode while still maintaining a slow-feeling pace somehow. That’s some great writing and directing!

I loved that Pelia is no engineer at all 200 years in the past. In fact she might end up interested in that field due to her encounter with Na’han (and has ample time to catch up!). I feel that they should have made clear if she remembers encountering her in the past, though.

I liked this Wesley better than the last time, but it just doesn’t feel “Kirk” at all to me. As a generic Starfleet (pardon, United Earth) captain he was fine. It does help that, once again, this is not *our* Kirk, but an alternate one with totally different experiences (and who became captain even younger due to the war, I guess).

9, and I was very tempted to go with a 10.

 

[Yistaan]

So it’s confirmed: modern Trek takes place in a slightly different timeline, with the eugenic wars happening decades later (and Khan vein in Toronto for some reason!) due to the temporal Cold War. This is a thing that has been long in the coming, nice they finally went there.

The problem is that there is no clear "cutoff" divergence point on which Trek works exactly take place in the 1990s Eugenics War timeline and which Trek works take place in the 21st century Eugenics War Timeline. Fans are going to go crazy trying to figure that one out.

 

[DaveyNY]

I'm gonna go with it's still the Prime Timeline, but with numerous alterations that have changed the advancement of the technology while pretty much leaving actual events we've already seen alone.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I just had another thought:

Given that the Temporal Cold War is indeed a thing, it can be argued that there is no original timeline. So who knows, even TOS could be the result of temporal meddling. And the timeline could still be changing and we'd never even know it.

 

[Yistaan]

You can't even just say "old Trek" was 1990s Eugenics Wars and "new Trek" was 21st century Eugenics Wars. Voyager's Future's End episode showed that even 1990s Trek already must've been in the 21st century Eugenics Wars timeline, due to the lack of Eugenics Wars when they arrived in 1996.

 

[Tallguy]

I cannot love that more. Whoever went to the trouble of getting the right ship? You are my hero.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Voyager's Future's End episode showed that even 1990s Trek already must've been in the 21st century Eugenics Wars timeline, due to the lack of Eugenics Wars when they arrived in 1996.

The USA wasn't involved in the wars. So it's no surprise they didn't see any evidence of them. And Rain Robinson had a model of the Botany Bay in her office, so then VOY must be set in the original timeline as well.

 

[UssGlenn]

You can't even just say "old Trek" was 1990s Eugenics Wars and "new Trek" was 21st century Eugenics Wars. Voyager's Future's End episode showed that even 1990s Trek already must've been in the 21st century Eugenics Wars timeline, due to the lack of Eugenics Wars when they arrived in 1996.

Starling's stolen ship crashed in the 60s and that was never reset, perhaps Futures End is a good the switching point

 

[Noname Given]

The episode is up on P+ now.

Rewatching Space Seed... in just the first few min, all 3 main characters make mistakes. Spock says it can't be an Earth ship (it is), Kirk says it's similar to DY-500 and Spock corrects him (much older, DY-100), then Bones says the lifesigns can't be human (they are), and Kirk misremembers the historian's name as McIvers and Spock corrects him again (McGivers). So it makes perfect sense that people get the 200 years wrong and have trouble remembering who Khan was And he initially says something more like Kann, short a, as in Cannes

And nobody recognized 'Khan' was Khan Noonian Singh until AFTER Kirk said: "Sure, read all the Tech Manuals on my ship that you want..."

 

[Hythlodeus]

You can't even just say "old Trek" was 1990s Eugenics Wars and "new Trek" was 21st century Eugenics Wars. Voyager's Future's End episode showed that even 1990s Trek already must've been in the 21st century Eugenics Wars timeline, due to the lack of Eugenics Wars when they arrived in 1996.

only when you consider VOY canon

 

[Yistaan]

The USA wasn't involved in the wars. So it's no surprise they didn't see any evidence of them. And Rain Robinson had a model of the Botany Bay in her office, so then VOY must be set in the original timeline as well.

SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.

The fact the Eugenics Wars are called a "world war" in TOS means the USA would very likely have been involved.

 

[DaveyNY]

More and more it seems that Khan is the temporal flash point for WWIII in the Trek Universe.

No matter what year he is born.

 

[DEWLine]

Seriously, they messed with this and left the Bell Riots alone? And if the franchise lasts until 2053, what then?

 

[Hythlodeus]

Seriously, they messed with this and left the Bell Riots alone? And if the franchise lasts until 2053, what then?

then we still have 10 years till First Contact

 

[Tallguy]

Seriously, they messed with this and left the Bell Riots alone? And if the franchise lasts until 2053, what then?

They don't keep mentioning the Bell Riots though.