Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x05 - "Spock Amok"

[Sci]

V'Las' administration may have been corrupt and secretly run by Romulans, but perhaps womens' rights were better in this era. Thus T'Pol having the freedom to divorce Koss. When T'Pau and her group took over in Enterprise, they may have reverted womens' rights to a more restrictive culture.

The only reason we're really given that T'Pau and her Surak religious fanatic group in Enterprise is good is because V'Las' group is run by human hating Romulans that are even worse. In Amok Time we see the full consequences of Archer throwing in with this group, the lesser evil so to speak, meaning that T'Pring's rights are far more restrictive than T'Pol's were a century ago.

That is certainly possible and is consistent with canon, but I wouldn't go with that explanation just yet. I can imagine the nascent Federation accepting that some of its founding Member States have rare archaic rituals that violate basic UFP principles if those rituals are rare and almost never invoked, but I have trouble imagining the Federation allowing one of its Member States to allow women's rights to actively get worse without intervening and forcing them to either stop it or be ejected from the UFP.

 

[Yistaan]

That is certainly possible and is consistent with canon, but I wouldn't go with that explanation just yet. I can imagine the nascent Federation accepting that some of its founding Member States have rare archaic rituals that violate basic UFP principles if those rituals are rare and almost never invoked, but I have trouble imagining the Federation allowing one of its Member States to allow women's rights to actively get worse without intervening and forcing them to either stop it or be ejected from the UFP.

Even from Amok Time you get the impression something's shady going on between T'Pau and the Federation Council, once you look past all the laughs and smiles from the happy ending. T'Pau plays a lethal game of gotcha on Kirk, exploiting his naivete about Vulcan culture. She's the only person to turn down a seat on the Fed Council, meaning things between her and the Fed are not as cozy as you'd expect from a personal friend of President Archer. Yet she has enough power to make Kirk's disobedience of orders to visit Vulcan go unpunished. Almost as if she has some kind of power over Starfleet Command and the Fed that goes outside of Fed rules and law.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Even from Amok Time you get the impression something's shady going on between T'Pau and the Federation Council, once you look past all the laughs and smiles from the happy ending. T'Pau plays a lethal game of gotcha on Kirk, exploiting his naivete about Vulcan culture. She's the only person to turn down a seat on the Fed Council, meaning things between her and the Fed are not as cozy as you'd expect from a personal friend of President Archer. Yet she has enough power to make Kirk's disobedience of orders to visit Vulcan go unpunished. Almost as if she has some kind of power over Starfleet Command and the Fed that goes outside of Fed rules and law.

It probably being just her being the Head Vulcan In Charge.

 

[Tuskin38]

It also calls into question why T'Pol was able to just divorce Koss.

Koss was the one who annulled the marriage, not T'Pol.

 

[ScottJ85]

10/10 for Enterprise Bingo alone.

 

[Coal_nete]

10/10 for Enterprise Bingo alone.

​

 

[Mr Awe]

I get the feeling that when the Federation was founded and in the years afterwards its leaders and representatives just learned to gloss over and conveniently ignore a lot of cultural traditions that they knew they couldn't eradicate short of the Federation becoming a police state so they just quietly deferred to member worlds when it came to certain practices. Vulcan arranged marriages being one of those.

Agreed. It seems a practical matter. If Vulcan couldn't keep their marriage traditions, they wouldn't join the Federation. Insert some other tradition for other planets and soon you have no Federation. No doubt it's a tightrope. Some core values but some leeway as well.

 

[cooleddie74]

To achieve idealism perfection is always sacrificed.

 

[Mr Awe]

Or, don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

[cooleddie74]

Something a lot of people in the real world frequently forget.

 

[Eddie Roth]

What's the purpose for your character when you stub your toe?


I really think you should let that go. She's not going to become more TOS-like as we go along.

Well my point was: what character development purpose is served for Spock by this story? It started out rather promisingly with the Kal-if-fee dream. An "Enemy Within" type show for Spock would've been cool. But instead of doing "Enemy Within", a classic, they chose to do "Turnabout Intruder", a turkey.

Yes and I suppose I will just have to build my own retcon for the Chapel discrepancy. I just feel that it shouldn't be the viewer who needs to do this. Couldn't this character have been Yeoman Colt, who we knew next to nothing about? Just typing this off the top of my head, the Jess Bush interpretation already feels more natural. Alas, she's still named Chapel and acts like Cruella-era Emma Stone.

 

[Belz...]

Well my point was: what character development purpose is served for Spock by this story?

Yes, and I answered that not everything is meant to develop a character.

Yes and I suppose I will just have to build my own retcon for the Chapel discrepancy.

No. What I said is that instead of caring MORE for something that'll never happen you should care less and enjoy the show more. Continuity, while preferable, is not the most important thing.

 

[Trekker4747]

There's, what, a 10-year gap between "now" in the series and the start of TOS? Plenty of time for Chapel's personality and demeanor to mature and change.

 

[cooleddie74]

Especially if your fiancee dies on you.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

Promiscuity seems to be a word uniquely applied to women.

Even Jess Bush in a recent interview calls her promiscuous. Yet, the sort of people that want this kind of high adventure are way out there on the scale of openness and yes, narcissism. These are two major traits for promiscuity. Face it. Our fave characters are NOT like ordinary people. They actually CRAVE things like going after the Gorn. They go back to it and can't give it up to raise some kids. They're addicted to adventure. They're insanely ambitious and brilliant too. They are not malignant narcissists. They are ethical and responsible. Yet, they do believe they are above it all. Face it. All psychologists will tell you that promiscuity is a sign of immaturity. So Chapel is immature. That's fine. I want her to grow and learn.
Chapel's adventure phase I believe will end soon. She eventually will choose Roger Korby as her husband. We have NO: IDEA what he was like before he was erased in an Android body but Christine tells us he "wouldn't have harmed anyone, even an insect!". Maybe he was a bit psycho from the beginning. We just don't know.
Recent interview shows Jess Bush's jewelry designs she wears as Chapel. Neat.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

If SNW ever reaches the point of addressing the events of "Amok Time" directly, I would love someone at the very least pointing out the absurd "logic" that requires trial by combat to get out of a marriage. Or the fact that a basic biological process, the reproductive cycle, is considered taboo to discuss. Things are made so much worse by sticking to these traditions.

When Spock says T'Pring in "Amok Time" had sound logic, you have to fit it in with the idea of what goals is she trying to accomplish. If she just wanted a divorce, I am sure she could have petitioned a UFP court, which I can't imagine would reject her request on the fact it goes against ancient customs. Keeping someone in a marriage against their will is surely a violation of fundamental sapient rights.

Problem is the bond still remained. The legal process of divorce is not the point. TPring and Spock were mentally bonded and they believed that only death, perhaps, ended that bond. They were wrong. Agreed though, that this whole tradition is insanely illogical. I don't believe Vulcans are logical at all. I mean in the sense of REASON. They are unreasonable. Spock constantly tells humans they are "illogical." What is bugging him? Vulcan's rigid code of conduct is illogical, unreasonable and yes I believe their culture is dying.
Spock says that "running up and down on green grass" is illogical and is not relaxation. WTF? Humans are constantly "illogical" being bombarded by nasty, disgusting emotions like humor. He's disgusted by the only people that accepted him for what he was. Yet he turns back to Vulcan who rejected him utterly. How reasonable is that? I'm finding that I don't like Spock anymore. Chapel has created an illusion about him and fallen in love with it. Opening her cold little girl heart is a good thing but Spock is not who she thinks he is.

 

[Belz...]

There's, what, a 10-year gap between "now" in the series and the start of TOS? Plenty of time for Chapel's personality and demeanor to mature and change.

Six years.

 

[Muji]

There's, what, a 10-year gap between "now" in the series and the start of TOS? Plenty of time for Chapel's personality and demeanor to mature and change.

Seven, I think. 2259 (SNW: Strange New Worlds) to 2266 (TOS: The Man Trap). But yeah, I totally agree. In the last seven years I've changed pretty dramatically. I think it's more than believable that some of the events we will hopefully get to see in SNW will impact her personality and demeanour. The last 7 years certainly have changed me.

 

[jackoverfull]

We already know slavery is illegal in the Federation. A forced marriage is slavery.

I never even understood why Amanda would go along with something so monstrous. As children, neither Spock nor T'Pring could consent.

I am not saying it needs to be erased from continuity, but I would like it addressed.

they addressed it in the SNW pilot, making it much more sensible.

 

[Paterson]

but I have trouble imagining the Federation allowing one of its Member States to allow women's rights to actively get worse without intervening and forcing them to either stop it or be ejected from the UFP.

We have real life examples of Poland in the EU, and many states in the USA where just such a thing is happening.