Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x07 - "Dominion"

[BBC 2 6pm]

Shields are a little different than intership forcefields. Interior forcefields are always shown as blocking both outgoing and incoming fire.

Different universe of course, but I'm thinking of Georgiou walking through the field into Burnham's detention cell.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Shame the quantum stasis field device went down with the Tal Shiar fleet, would've been so handy right about now!

 

[Guy Gardener]

War crimes are not dependent on a state of war existing. A more correct technical term would be a violation of the laws of warfare and combat.

Nah. I had it right. You are wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime#:~:text=The rule of war, also,prisoners of war or civilians.

 

[Yistaan]

Exactly, which is why this pearl-clutching and hand wringing over Picard and Crusher considering killing an "unarmed" prisoner is not correct...Changlings can turn their very body into stabbing, choking or otherwise more lethal attacks than what humanoids can do

Crusher: Good, Jean-Luc, good. Kill her.

[Vadic looks at Crusher in shock]

Crusher: Kill her now.

Picard: I shouldn't...

Crusher: Do it!

Picard: [Picard vaporizes Vadic]

Crusher: You did well, Jean-Luc. She was too dangerous to be kept alive.

Picard: Yes, but she was an unarmed prisoner. I shouldn't have done that. It's not the Starfleet way.

Crusher: It is only natural. She hunted our son, kidnapped Will, stole your body, and you wanted revenge. It wasn't the first time, Jean-Luc. Remember what you told me about Ensign Lynch in the holodeck.

[sound of machine gun fire as if Picard can still hear Lynch's death]

Crusher: Now, we must leave before more changelings arrive.

 

[Citiprime]

Strictly speaking, it was a war crime as it was a false surrender as a means to deceiving the enemy and luring them into an ambush/attack.

False surrenders are indeed war crimes.

So is summary execution of prisoners, but Kruge's murder of David for no reason showed that playing by any kind of rules of war was out the window. Also, since the Federation is aware of the Klingons' treatment of prisoners (e.g., Kirk states that the "Klingons don't take prisoners" at the beginning of Wrath of Khan, or at the very least sees prisoners as non-persons that can be treated as basically slaves), I think a pretty good argument can be made that Kruge negated any obligation for Kirk and crew to abide by the rules of being a prisoner of war (if they even apply on a galactic level) once he ordered a member of the Grissom away team to be murdered.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Yes but that brings in the main justification for such rules: if you fake surrenders, next time when you really want to surrender nobody will believe you. Not the Klingons, but not other 'people' either.

 

[Yistaan]

Star Trek's warfare rules don't correspond with real world ones anyway. Pretty sure in Discovery Starfleet laid bombs on Klingon bodies to kill the Klingons retrieving them, which is a real life war crime.

Yes but that brings in the main justification for such rules: if you fake surrenders, next time when you really want to surrender nobody will believe you. Not the Klingons, but not other 'people' either.

General "fake surrender" Kenobi from that other star franchise has entered the chat. Strangely enough Kenobi is never called out in-universe for this very serious war crime in the Clone Wars, and in fact he and Anakin repeat it in Clone Wars Season 7.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Star Trek's warfare rules don't correspond with real world ones anyway. Pretty sure in Discovery Starfleet laid bombs on Klingon bodies to kill the Klingons retrieving them, which is a real life war crime.

Discussed upthread!

 

[Racefuel]

Nah. I had it right. You are wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime#:~:text=The rule of war, also,prisoners of war or civilians.

What I am saying is that it is not clear that the Federation and Klingons would be considered in a state of de-facto conflict, as described by Spock as "70 years of unremitting hostility" vs a state of declared war.

You do not need to be in a state of declared war for there to be warcrimes, merely a state of armed hostility or conflict.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Star Trek's warfare rules don't correspond with real world ones anyway. Pretty sure in Discovery Starfleet laid bombs on Klingon bodies to kill the Klingons retrieving them, which is a real life war crime.

General "fake surrender" Kenobi from that other star franchise has entered the chat. Strangely enough Kenobi is never called out in-universe for this very serious war crime in the Clone Wars, and in fact he and Anakin repeat it in Clone Wars Season 7.

I think they really don't see the droids as equals or worth anything.

 

[Yistaan]

I think they really don't see the droids as equals or worth anything.

General Whorm Loathsom wasn't a droid.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So is summary execution of prisoners, but Kruge's murder of David for no reason showed that playing by any kind of rules of war was out the window. Also, since the Federation is aware of the Klingons' treatment of prisoners (e.g., Kirk states that the "Klingons don't take prisoners" at the beginning of Wrath of Khan, or at the very least sees prisoners as non-persons that can be treated as basically slaves), I think a pretty good argument can be made that Kruge negated any obligation for Kirk and crew to abide by the rules of being a prisoner of war (if they even apply on a galactic level) once he ordered a member of the Grissom away team to be murdered.

Kurge was either a spy pretending to be a pirate or a pirate pretending to be a spy.

As a pirate, he's a criminal, and laws mean nothing.

As a spy, the empire means everything, and law still means nothing.

 

[Racefuel]

Kurge was either a spy pretending to be a pirate or a pirate pretending to be a spy.

As a pirate, he's a criminal, and laws mean nothing.

As a spy, the empire means everything, and law still means nothing.

The Klingons knew what he was doing and did not disavow him.


Ambassador Sarek : Your vessel did destroy the USS Grissom, your men did kill Kirk's son. Do you deny these events?

Klingon Ambassador : We deny nothing. We have the right to preserve our race.

Ambassador Sarek : You have the right to commit murder?

So yeah, the Klingons knew he was there, knew what he was doing and knowingly did commit an act of war.

 

[Citiprime]

As far as the Enterprise-E's role in the Dominion War....

I remember DS9 fans speculated Picard might have been in charge of the Third Fleet that is stated as protecting Earth in DS9's "Favor the Bold."

In that episode, Sisko proposes pulling a significant amount of Starfleet's resources away from other fronts to retake Deep Space Nine. One of the concerns of the admiralty is the precarious position it will leave Earth if the Dominion doesn't commit its forces to defending Deep Space Nine and the wormhole. Admiral Ross asserts Earth will still be defended by the Third Fleet, but if the Dominion were to launch an all-out assault against the Sol System, the fall of Earth would be likely.

 

[Racefuel]

So is summary execution of prisoners, but Kruge's murder of David for no reason showed that playing by any kind of rules of war was out the window. Also, since the Federation is aware of the Klingons' treatment of prisoners (e.g., Kirk states that the "Klingons don't take prisoners" at the beginning of Wrath of Khan, or at the very least sees prisoners as non-persons that can be treated as basically slaves), I think a pretty good argument can be made that Kruge negated any obligation for Kirk and crew to abide by the rules of being a prisoner of war (if they even apply on a galactic level) once he ordered a member of the Grissom away team to be murdered.

Disregard for the rules and laws of war do not give the other side a free pass to likewise do the same.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What I am saying is that it is not clear that the Federation and Klingons would be considered in a state of de-facto conflict, as described by Spock as "70 years of unremitting hostility" vs a state of declared war.

You do not need to be in a state of declared war for there to be warcrimes, merely a state of armed hostility or conflict.

What the hell happened to the Organian treaty?

It was supposed to last one hundred years.

It's possible that they could only fuck with each other because Kirk was not working for the Federation, and Kurge was not working for the Empire.

Civilian yahoos!

Chang was working for an alliance of Humans and Romulans and Klingons technically, so he was free to fire on Kronos 1 and the Enterprise without his controls becoming super hot to the touch.

 

[Racefuel]

As far as the Enterprise-E's role in the Dominion War....

I remember DS9 fans speculated Picard might have been in charge of the Third Fleet that is stated as protecting Earth in DS9's "Favor the Bold."

In that episode, Sisko proposes pulling a significant amount of Starfleet's resources away from other fronts to retake Deep Space Nine. One of the concerns of the admiralty is the precarious position it will leave Earth if the Dominion doesn't commit its forces to defending Deep Space Nine and the wormhole. Admiral Ross asserts Earth will still be defended by the Third Fleet, but if the Dominion were to launch an all-out assault against the Sol System, the fall of Earth would be likely.

There was a Sovereign wing in "Operation Return" and it stands to reason the E-E was there also.

Insurrection takes place during a relative lul in the fighting between the retaking of DS9 and the Invasion of Chintoka..so its possible the Enterprise was dispatched to other duties during that time.

 

[drt]

What the hell happened to the Organian treaty?

It was supposed to last one hundred years.

It was inconvenient, so was ignored after TOS.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Kurge was either a spy pretending to be a pirate or a pirate pretending to be a spy.

As a pirate, he's a criminal, and laws mean nothing.

As a spy, the empire means everything, and law still means nothing.

Though Kirk is also not exactly a lawful combatant!

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Klingons knew what he was doing and did not disavow him.


Ambassador Sarek : Your vessel did destroy the USS Grissom, your men did kill Kirk's son. Do you deny these events?

Klingon Ambassador : We deny nothing. We have the right to preserve our race.

Ambassador Sarek : You have the right to commit murder?

So yeah, the Klingons knew he was there, knew what he was doing and knowingly did commit an act of war.

That was months later.

Kirk could only suspect if Kurge was under Orders to steal Genesis.

He didn't know if Kurge was a spy, a soldier or a pirate.