Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x09 - "Hide and Seek"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
My interpretation of that scene was that they didn't emerge as a truly "combined" entity until the Queen agreed to cooperate as partners. I think the dramatization is meant to mirror an actual internal dialogue between distinct personalities, the evidence of which lies in the Queen's physical struggle with her own body to accomplish objectives. Jurati even namedrops the hormone control thing when explaining why Her Majesty couldn't stab Seven. The Queen still needed to be convinced in order for this merger to work, otherwise she would have retained enough control to cause an impasse. So yes, she's no longer entirely herself after this transaction, but she was technically redeemed in order for said transformation to occur. It wasn't like she was convinced because she absorbed traits like empathy from Jurati or something; at least, that wasn't how it was presented.
Last edited:
I took it as, the "argument" between Jurati and the Queen was a dramatization of the process of the two minds merging into one.
I got to hand it to this thread, these theories are awesome. It's a nice break from the new trek hate with YouTube videos.
I know I should probably cut people some slack - I can't expect for them to see Jean-Luc the way I do, as a vulnerable, sweet, nerdy, dorky (I mean this in a nice way) but also emotionally tortured guy who just happened to command the flagship(s) of the Federation for a while. I know most fans view him the other way around, with starship captain as the prominent thing they think of. Hence why all this now is so jarring to them. I do try to cut the legit criticism some slack, I get where people are coming from, not everyone is as much into him as a person as I am and to someone who has not been this "close" to Jean-Luc every day of their lives (in my mind he has always aged along with me, it was just a matter of interpretation as to HOW, but I'm flexible on that part, I've never looked at him as "the guy we saw in Nemesis the last time"), but after literally almost four years now of constant whining and complaining from certain fandom corners I am simply... exhausted. So incredibly exhausted, as both a fan of Sir Patrick and someone who is in literal love with Jean-Luc Picard.
My only wish at this point is for the show to finally be over so that people move on and I can digest the things that have happened JLP-wise in peace (and maybe write some fan fic, who knows, I've had to stop for now but once a writer, always a writer) AND I can continue my love for Sir Patrick without having to read nasty Trekkie comments about him all the time. I know, "do not read" is an option, but not for me as a Sir Patrick fan who keeps up with his career 24/7, I get to see and read EVERYTHING that happens, I've had 20 years to fine-tune my sources, and now they're so fine-tuned that I hear the faintest whisper of a rumor right when it appears... but, unfortunately, the nerd hate is loud also.
But, like I said, I try. I know that people want for Jean-Luc to be their hero and I should remember that even though I look at him from a completely different perspective - after all, he would be the first person to tell me that in order to understand another person's feelings you have to look at things from their point of view.
I'm gonna get somewhat personal now so I'll put this into a spoiler because trigger warning.
My father committed suicide, too. I share this with Jean-Luc although my father and I never were close like Jean-Luc and his mother were, more like the contrary, my father loathed me right from the moment I was born and I came to first fear and then loathe him in return as a result. He suffered from severe depression and, as a result, severe alcoholism. He threw himself in front of a train one morning, two weeks after he'd been released from a clinic. He was quite far gone at that point - he saw people who weren't there, he even mistook me for a burglar one night. (He didn't attack me, he just screamed and screamed.) He got stuck in his bathtub and could not get out again because his legs suddenly wouldn't work. If I hadn't heard his desperate cries for help, he would have been trapped there over night. Etc etc etc, I'm not gonna list the entire story. What I'm saying: He also refused treatment even though there was lots of stuff available. He wouldn't have it. The clinic at the end only happened because a doctor determined he was a danger to himself and others (he ran around the house in the middle of the night and screamed about men in black coming to get him, so my mother and I had no option left but to call the police and they called a doctor).
What I'm trying to say: If someone doesn't WANT treatment (as Yvette also did not), you can only try to accomodate them. You can't force them to "just get help", no matter what century we're in. It doesn't have to be a technology issue. It's easy to look at it from the outside and say "why didn't they just get help, it's right there". But once you're actually IN the situation, things are a LOT more complicated than this. There is no "simple solution", and I kinda appreciate it that they showed that things are like this in the 24th century as well. This stuff is NEVER simple. I'd be more miffed if they had simply showed Yvette getting treatment and everything being peachy afterwards, yay, problem solved. THAT would have felt like a slap in the face of someone like me who suffered through this from the point of view of a son witnessing the mental decline and eventual fall of a father he once feared like no one else in the world. (I was in my mid 20s when my father committed suicide, not a small child, granted, but still, it was traumatizing nonetheless, his problems had gone on for YEARS, his issues really came out when I was about 14 although the problems with alcohol had always been there, I never knew him without at least SOME alcohol in his vicinity, which turned my childhood into a literal hell.)
In the end, you can only do SO much. My father was mentally ill, and he committed suicide. Could my mother and I have prevented it? I have no idea but I lean towards no because he wouldn't have accepted help, and my mother TRIED to help him, many times, she tried to persuade him to seek help, but he always just nodded and then grabbed his beer bottle once she'd left (my parents were separated but my father lived in the basement of our house, he had a little room and a kitchen and a bathroom there). Could he have gotten help? Of course. But he didn't WANT it. What were my mother and I supposed to do? Chain him and drag him to a clinic? The DID do that in the end, they dragged him to a clinic but look at how THAT helped.
My point is: I can't believe I'm defending Maurice Picard of all people but he WAS trying to help Yvette. It's never as simple as "just get help". You end up in so many messed up situations in such rapid succession that at some point you can only try to handle things on a day by day basis, and I think this is what he did. Sure it's easy to say "why didn't he..." but you have to have BEEN in this situation to see that it isn't always as easy. I have been in the situation. And I can safely say it's not easy at all, neither when you're IN the situation nor afterwards. This stuff... traumatizes you. In ways you don't even notice until quite a few years have passed.
My mother and I never spoke about what happened with my father in those years. We had some kind of pact of silence about it, I don't know. She died four years ago - she was only 61 years old, another trauma on top of tons of trauma for me - so the only one who is left with all the haunting and terrible memories now is me. And... it's not an easy situation to be in, that's all I'm saying. I relate VERY VERY much to Jean-Luc, even more so than I related to him before all this was revealed.
What I'm trying to say: If someone doesn't WANT treatment (as Yvette also did not), you can only try to accomodate them. You can't force them to "just get help", no matter what century we're in. It doesn't have to be a technology issue. It's easy to look at it from the outside and say "why didn't they just get help, it's right there". But once you're actually IN the situation, things are a LOT more complicated than this. There is no "simple solution", and I kinda appreciate it that they showed that things are like this in the 24th century as well. This stuff is NEVER simple. I'd be more miffed if they had simply showed Yvette getting treatment and everything being peachy afterwards, yay, problem solved. THAT would have felt like a slap in the face of someone like me who suffered through this from the point of view of a son witnessing the mental decline and eventual fall of a father he once feared like no one else in the world. (I was in my mid 20s when my father committed suicide, not a small child, granted, but still, it was traumatizing nonetheless, his problems had gone on for YEARS, his issues really came out when I was about 14 although the problems with alcohol had always been there, I never knew him without at least SOME alcohol in his vicinity, which turned my childhood into a literal hell.)
In the end, you can only do SO much. My father was mentally ill, and he committed suicide. Could my mother and I have prevented it? I have no idea but I lean towards no because he wouldn't have accepted help, and my mother TRIED to help him, many times, she tried to persuade him to seek help, but he always just nodded and then grabbed his beer bottle once she'd left (my parents were separated but my father lived in the basement of our house, he had a little room and a kitchen and a bathroom there). Could he have gotten help? Of course. But he didn't WANT it. What were my mother and I supposed to do? Chain him and drag him to a clinic? The DID do that in the end, they dragged him to a clinic but look at how THAT helped.
My point is: I can't believe I'm defending Maurice Picard of all people but he WAS trying to help Yvette. It's never as simple as "just get help". You end up in so many messed up situations in such rapid succession that at some point you can only try to handle things on a day by day basis, and I think this is what he did. Sure it's easy to say "why didn't he..." but you have to have BEEN in this situation to see that it isn't always as easy. I have been in the situation. And I can safely say it's not easy at all, neither when you're IN the situation nor afterwards. This stuff... traumatizes you. In ways you don't even notice until quite a few years have passed.
My mother and I never spoke about what happened with my father in those years. We had some kind of pact of silence about it, I don't know. She died four years ago - she was only 61 years old, another trauma on top of tons of trauma for me - so the only one who is left with all the haunting and terrible memories now is me. And... it's not an easy situation to be in, that's all I'm saying. I relate VERY VERY much to Jean-Luc, even more so than I related to him before all this was revealed.
Why do the Sirena transporters turn green when transporting Borg ?
Also I feel like the writers forgot it's not the real Sirena.
On the plus side 7 and Rios were excellent again.
Also I feel like the writers forgot it's not the real Sirena.
On the plus side 7 and Rios were excellent again.
"It is always said of Stewart that his strength as an actor is his ability to deliver bad dialogue with utter conviction. I say it is time to stop encouraging him. Here's an idea: Instead of giving him bad dialogue, why not give him good dialogue, and see what he can do with that?" - Roger Ebert.
Ah, Roger, gone far too soon. Bless him, for being a good writer and humane man. Unfortunately, the people who wrote this story did not take Ebert's advice to heart.
How considerate.
Must have taken a lot of courage writing this..! Respect!I know I should probably cut people some slack - I can't expect for them to see Jean-Luc the way I do, as a vulnerable, sweet, nerdy, dorky (I mean this in a nice way) but also emotionally tortured guy who just happened to command the flagship(s) of the Federation for a while. I know most fans view him the other way around, with starship captain as the prominent thing they think of. Hence why all this now is so jarring to them. I do try to cut the legit criticism some slack, I get where people are coming from, not everyone is as much into him as a person as I am and to someone who has not been this "close" to Jean-Luc every day of their lives (in my mind he has always aged along with me, it was just a matter of interpretation as to HOW, but I'm flexible on that part, I've never looked at him as "the guy we saw in Nemesis the last time"), but after literally almost four years now of constant whining and complaining from certain fandom corners I am simply... exhausted. So incredibly exhausted, as both a fan of Sir Patrick and someone who is in literal love with Jean-Luc Picard.
My only wish at this point is for the show to finally be over so that people move on and I can digest the things that have happened JLP-wise in peace (and maybe write some fan fic, who knows, I've had to stop for now but once a writer, always a writer) AND I can continue my love for Sir Patrick without having to read nasty Trekkie comments about him all the time. I know, "do not read" is an option, but not for me as a Sir Patrick fan who keeps up with his career 24/7, I get to see and read EVERYTHING that happens, I've had 20 years to fine-tune my sources, and now they're so fine-tuned that I hear the faintest whisper of a rumor right when it appears... but, unfortunately, the nerd hate is loud also.
But, like I said, I try. I know that people want for Jean-Luc to be their hero and I should remember that even though I look at him from a completely different perspective - after all, he would be the first person to tell me that in order to understand another person's feelings you have to look at things from their point of view.
I'm gonna get somewhat personal now so I'll put this into a spoiler because trigger warning.
My father committed suicide, too. I share this with Jean-Luc although my father and I never were close like Jean-Luc and his mother were, more like the contrary, my father loathed me right from the moment I was born and I came to first fear and then loathe him in return as a result. He suffered from severe depression and, as a result, severe alcoholism. He threw himself in front of a train one morning, two weeks after he'd been released from a clinic. He was quite far gone at that point - he saw people who weren't there, he even mistook me for a burglar one night. (He didn't attack me, he just screamed and screamed.) He got stuck in his bathtub and could not get out again because his legs suddenly wouldn't work. If I hadn't heard his desperate cries for help, he would have been trapped there over night. Etc etc etc, I'm not gonna list the entire story. What I'm saying: He also refused treatment even though there was lots of stuff available. He wouldn't have it. The clinic at the end only happened because a doctor determined he was a danger to himself and others (he ran around the house in the middle of the night and screamed about men in black coming to get him, so my mother and I had no option left but to call the police and they called a doctor).
What I'm trying to say: If someone doesn't WANT treatment (as Yvette also did not), you can only try to accomodate them. You can't force them to "just get help", no matter what century we're in. It doesn't have to be a technology issue. It's easy to look at it from the outside and say "why didn't they just get help, it's right there". But once you're actually IN the situation, things are a LOT more complicated than this. There is no "simple solution", and I kinda appreciate it that they showed that things are like this in the 24th century as well. This stuff is NEVER simple. I'd be more miffed if they had simply showed Yvette getting treatment and everything being peachy afterwards, yay, problem solved. THAT would have felt like a slap in the face of someone like me who suffered through this from the point of view of a son witnessing the mental decline and eventual fall of a father he once feared like no one else in the world. (I was in my mid 20s when my father committed suicide, not a small child, granted, but still, it was traumatizing nonetheless, his problems had gone on for YEARS, his issues really came out when I was about 14 although the problems with alcohol had always been there, I never knew him without at least SOME alcohol in his vicinity, which turned my childhood into a literal hell.)
In the end, you can only do SO much. My father was mentally ill, and he committed suicide. Could my mother and I have prevented it? I have no idea but I lean towards no because he wouldn't have accepted help, and my mother TRIED to help him, many times, she tried to persuade him to seek help, but he always just nodded and then grabbed his beer bottle once she'd left (my parents were separated but my father lived in the basement of our house, he had a little room and a kitchen and a bathroom there). Could he have gotten help? Of course. But he didn't WANT it. What were my mother and I supposed to do? Chain him and drag him to a clinic? The DID do that in the end, they dragged him to a clinic but look at how THAT helped.
My point is: I can't believe I'm defending Maurice Picard of all people but he WAS trying to help Yvette. It's never as simple as "just get help". You end up in so many messed up situations in such rapid succession that at some point you can only try to handle things on a day by day basis, and I think this is what he did. Sure it's easy to say "why didn't he..." but you have to have BEEN in this situation to see that it isn't always as easy. I have been in the situation. And I can safely say it's not easy at all, neither when you're IN the situation nor afterwards. This stuff... traumatizes you. In ways you don't even notice until quite a few years have passed.
My mother and I never spoke about what happened with my father in those years. We had some kind of pact of silence about it, I don't know. She died four years ago - she was only 61 years old, another trauma on top of tons of trauma for me - so the only one who is left with all the haunting and terrible memories now is me. And... it's not an easy situation to be in, that's all I'm saying. I relate VERY VERY much to Jean-Luc, even more so than I related to him before all this was revealed.
Thank you. I hope it brings some insight in the matter. I can only say that whoever wrote those scenes with Jean-Luc, Maurice and Yvette knew what they were doing. Of course every situation is different and unique in a sad way, but a whole lot of it sure feels eerily familiar to someone like me who actually went through this sort of thing in a broad sense (some details are different, of course, but the general horrible idea is the same).
So is Seven going to hide for the last episode? Not as easy to cover borg implants as it is a Bajoran nose or Vulcan ears...
But those weird medical ailments were usually a result of anomalous encounters in space (not something a regular UFP citizen would encounter). And, it was repeated throughout 90-ies Trek several times that virtually all disorders (mental or physical - even those that affected Humans in older age) were effectively eliminated and were unheard of in the 24th century.
It would have made more sense if Jean Luc's parents were described as having an aversion to most modern technology (which doesn't seem extraordinary given how Maurice and Robert were described in TNG) and didn't seek out medical treatment at first, and that by the time they have, it was too late.
Would she really have to?
People have a lot of different body modifications on them in this day and age. Most people would likely think her implants are decorative (rather than serve actual function).
Even so, we don't want to risk her being in FBI custody... and I doubt she'd get out as easily as Picard and Guinan.
Apologies if this has already been stated, I’m thinking that the idea that one Renee must live, one Renee must die means that in this timeline, they are going to have to let Soong kill her. If this is in fact the timeline that leads to the Confederation, it must go down that path. That might be why both the Borg Queen and Q have both tried to stop Renee in their actions. Having both Renee’s live would cause a huge paradox.
If she was younger I don't think people would bat an eye. All she really needs to do is tattoo her whole face, dye her hair, or wear something edgy and people would think she's just some weirdo.
I thought the point was there was only supposed to be one time line. If it is as you suggest, perhaps the solution is to do something that allows both timelines to exist. Not that any of this makes any sense because time travel is a paradox in itself unless it creates a new timeline.
I just finished the episode and I like how the Borg have turned face (for those of you who aren't wrestling fans, "face" is when a wrestler turns "good" in wrestling storylines)! This is somewhat similar to the trilogy of Star Trek novels called "Destiny" where at the end of that story the Borg, after invading the Alpha Quadrant with a massive invasion of thousands upon thousands of Borg ships.......well, I won't spoil the ending of that fantastic trilogy! You're gonna have to read it yourself.
"There are two seemingly contradictory events that must occur" smells like a hasty attempt to paper over having given Q and the Borg Queen apparently similar agendas where Renee is concerned, when their objectives appear to be very different.
Or, the writers could pull a brilliant twist out of the hat next week. After the previous nine episodes, that doesn't seem like something they're capable of.
Or, the writers could pull a brilliant twist out of the hat next week. After the previous nine episodes, that doesn't seem like something they're capable of.
Guinan not recognizing Picard despite the events of “Time’s Arrow.” Q trying to snap Renee out of existence is another. The Borg Queen who suggests at first that this is the point and that it must be preserved but then leading the attack to allow Soong to have his future. Something is amiss here and Matalas has said he’s very aware of the contradictions. But my guess is that this is because all of this has to happen so that the Borgati can be born and that peace can occur between the Federation and the Borg in the real timeline (hence the anomaly at the start of the season). In the end, all the butterflies, all the contradictions in the timeline? They don’t matter. Because this isn’t the timeline we’ve been in for most of Star Trek.
Or it’s just a big mess and I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about.
Either is possible.
We’ve also watched various crews save the future dozens of times. What if we had to watch them seemingly blow it up?
For those commenting on the size of the thread...at the same relative point in time, the 2x04 thread was on page 45, FWIW. It stalled at 102 pages.
