Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x09 - "Hide and Seek"

[Charles Phipps]

Some thoughts about the penultimate episode:

1. The Federation had just come out of the Dominion War and was a lot less accepting as well as cordial than it was before the Voyager was lost. They weren't ready to accept the Doctor as a sentient being and were iffy about accepting the Maquis as crew members.

I can easily imagine them attempting to impose a lot of conditions on Seven, only for Janeway to make it a fight and Seven to say "no thank you" because she didn't want to make it a fight. Seven's pride has always been huge and she wouldn't want to be a place she wasn't wanted.

Also, Seven identifies as a Borg while Picard didn't. By contrast, I'm inclined to think Icheb would react to any hoops he had to jump through by going, "How high?"

2. Picard's mother committing suicide after being locked up by her husband in the attic and freed by her son isn't so much LIKE a Victorian novel as it is made of several Victorian plots put together. Particularly Jane Eyre. Certainly, it makes no sense as a thing on Earth in the 21st century let alone 24th but I'm willing to give a pass for the sake of melodrama. My headcanon is Picard is the child of one of the two suicides on Earth that year versus our 800,000 per year. And yes, I say this as someone who has lost loved ones to it.

I also do love the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" comeback because it turns an innocous scene into something that would clearly FREAK Picard the hell out.

3. Speaking as someone with a family that has a history of mental illness, I can easily buy it as a perfect storm of Papa Picard hating modern technology (including medicine) and the mother believing she’s not mentally ill. Destygmatizing it is hopefully something that happened in the 23rd and 24th century but I can easily buy she doesn’t consider herself “sick” if she was just severely bipolar. The two’s out of odds views combined with their relative isolation resulted in an event that should never have happened.

4. The Borg being driven by a relentless sense of loneliness and fear of rejection is something that I think works on that "everyone bad is secretly reasonable and good except for Dukat" that is part of Star Trek's heart. I also buy it because Jurati is only dealing on a one to one basis for the Collective.

5. I am going to be sad if this is the end of Doctor Jurati even if this was a pretty good send off for her. Having Captain Picard inspire the woman who potentially "heals" the Borg or at least causes a good chunk of them to break off is a pretty good resolution to a lot of Picard's plots. I do hope Rios stays in the future, though, because I want to see him in Season 3. As much as I love the old gang, I don't want the current group discarded.

6. I don't think Picard forgot his mother committed suicide or anything, though he may have forgotten letting her out.

7. I actually like how Adam Soong essentially just brushes off Picard's attempt to reach out to him, which I don't think we see enough of in Star Trek. I truly believe he'd look at the Confederation and go, "Hey, the Borg had it coming. What's a little genocide if they're EVIL?"

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Episode one 11:00 minute mark.

Thank you! I can use it in my rewatch.

Well, perhaps seeing the borg virtually on the brink of extinction, with herself the sole survivor helped, especially if it’s true they inevitably end that way.
yes, teak rarely did justice to the romulans for some reason.

that was it?! I realise just now. Cringe indeed.

I might be exaggerating it, but a child would have to "look up" to the ceiling in order to see it. I just felt bad when I saw it.

I'm hoping that was Michelle and EE hedging against spoilers - the cast can't come right out and say that of course Elnor will be back, after all. I just *really* wanna see Elnor and Worf get a couple of scenes together next season. XD

I really hope you're right, but I'm starting to become a cranky old lady at this point in the season.

 

[Lord Garth]

How I think the course of events went after "Endgame". Something that sounds Voyager style.

Voyager gets home.
There are multiple debriefings.
The Maquis are all pardoned.
The crew reunites with their families and friends in the Alpha Quadrant.
Janeway asks Seven what she's considering doing with her life.
Janeway tries to sell Seven on joining Starfleet.
Seven is somehow convinced.
The Doctor is proud that Seven is joining Starfleet.
Icheb is accepted into Starfleet Academy. Things are looking good.
Then the other shoe drops.
Starfleet lays down a bunch of terms. They ask all kinds of uncomfortable questions.
Seven of Nine gets upset.
Janeway tries to fight for Seven. Even puts her career on the line.
Starfleet holds firm on their decision.
Janeway is ready to fight for Seven tooth-and-nail.
Seven decides she doesn't need Starfleet. She snaps back to where she was in Season 4.
Janeway has a heart-to-heart with Seven, but Seven says she has to find a place where she's accepted.
Janeway relents in what would've been a heartfelt scene.
Some Admiral tells Janeway they know this wasn't easy for her.
In the same discussion, the Admiral tells Janeway she has to move forward with her life.
Janeway is offered a promotion to Admiral.
Janeway promises that even if the former Voyager crew has to move on with their careers and on with their lives, they'll always be part of the Voyager Family. Music swells up.

This sounds Voyager-esque to me, and lines up with what's referred back to in Picard.

 

[Go-Captain]

I like the Borg turning good, well, probably "good," it's something I've wanted a long time, but the way it happens is characteristic of the whole show. It requires us to rapidly accept an argument or statement because there is little to no ground work setting up the scene and motivation. While Jurati's argument to take a chance on a new method makes sense, we don't have direct examples of the Queen being open to new thinking. Sure, we can make assumptions and conjecture, but that's the audience working out the setup after the fact rather than seeing the story unfold.

We had 9 episodes where the Queen could have been exposed to a different way of life instead of taking over and doing what ever. She explicitly gives being a person a try and gives up within minutes. All it would take is for shared control to have been a consistent factor earlier, for longer.

Same for Seven trying to join Starfleet, comes out of no where, no explanation. Either it's accepted fully, no questions, or accepted in part for the same reasons it is rejected there's a hole, and that gets filled with "well, maybe Seven was obstinate?" Again, that's the audience filling in a major datum to make the scene work. Instead of Raffi being awful, to clear everyone out for Jurati's assimilation, we could have had Seven getting envious of Raffi becoming an officer despite her numerous problems, when Seven wasn't given any chance. Seven could call her out on her bullshit in the first episode they're on the town, simultaneously moving the plot along and adding characterization to be worked on throughout the season, making it a point of connection and growth for the two.

Raffi loving Elnor is another example. Sure, she probably liked him season 1, and became his officer, but we had to scramble to explain why she is reacting like her son got killed. Yes, it's an easy explanation, but it's based on the reaction, not on preceding scenes. That scene of Raffi manipulating Elnor, and the little bit of explanation, coming before Elnor's death might have set things right. That's another problem, stringing answers out as if they're mysteries.

First episode, they mention the Borg aren't a threat anymore, no context given. Sure, we can think to ourselves Janeway was wrong in "Endgame" and she did more damage than she thought, but the show doesn't say that. We are filling in. We have a better idea of how the Confederation defeated their Borg, but we don't know how they did it either despite an entire episode centered on the Confederation. At its most minimal it is a matter of world building, because a person coming into PIC season 2 cold is going to know nothing about the Borg except some forgettable statements and general vampire zombieness.

It's not like there isn't time to set things up properly, by this point the show feels three episodes long. The pace is heavily padded, but at least it isn't the rubber band pacing of the first season.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Same for Seven trying to join Starfleet, comes out of no where, no explanation. Either it's accepted fully, no questions, or accepted in part for the same reasons it is rejected there's a hole, and that gets filled with "well, maybe Seven was obstinate?"

Speaking as a writer, I note that there's a difference between plot holes from bad writing and the audience being left to fill in the blanks in a way that's actually good writing. In this case, I don't feel like Seven of Nine having trouble getting into Starfleet is something that's remotely unbelievable.

Her characterization and history and what we know mean we don't have our suspension of disbelief broken.

"Maybe she's obstinate" fits with the fact we know TORRES couldn't hack it because of her personality, let alone Seven.

First episode, they mention the Borg aren't a threat anymore, no context given. Sure, we can think to ourselves Janeway was wrong in "Endgame" and she did more damage than she thought, but the show doesn't say that. We are filling in. We have a better idea of how the Confederation defeated their Borg, but we don't know how they did it either despite an entire episode centered on the Confederation. At its most minimal it is a matter of world building, because a person coming into PIC season 2 cold is going to know nothing about the Borg except some forgettable statements and general vampire zombieness.

The answer is actually pretty good from Jurati that it's not so much the Confederation were a bunch of absolute badasses (they do seem to be excellent scientists due to the fact they have endless numbers of androids--probably due to the fact Soong is worshiped as a god) but the fact the Borg are self-defeating. Jurati's point is the fact EVERYONE hates the Borg and they have no allies as well as many fail points. So eventually someone will destroy them.

In this universe, Species 8472 could have wiped out 90% of them before the Confederation finished them off or maybe they came up with a Borg-killing virus that they didn't fail to use. The thing is that they are doomed to lose because they have such crappy PR.

 

[NCC-73515]

Holy crap, this episode just premiered today. How are there already 23 pages of posts?

It was released when we were on page 3, some 20.5 h before your post. 1 page per hour

How would a guy from the 24th century know how to operate a Luger pistol?

This guy played Dixon Hill holonovels

That could be, but it doesn't really need to be. The prime La Sirena already comes with the brain scan tech to create the Rios holograms. I'd assume that's where the idea came from in the first place. Connecting this tech to the synth bodies would imply that they are duplicating consciousness which I doubt is what the Elnor hologram is.

Good point, perhaps all people are automatically scanned in case they wanna buy the ship XD

True, but I'd imagine it can differentiate between a gas and solid matter. Or not, and the transporter is even more dangerous to use than I had imagined.

A Confi computer probably always asks: Do you wanna wall people in this transport action? Y/N.

That was my takeaway and what I hope she meant.

Even before the season started, I wondered if the hard lesson is that Rene has to die for some reason and Picard has his COTEOF moment realizing that he can't save him...

He also used it in a speech in the premiere so it's possible he's used that line in speeches throughout the years and Jurati heard it. Or the Queen was just warning Picard to look up because something was about to fall on his head haha .

Or it's Klingon lu' qap (it really is ok), lu' Qap (alright it works), lu qap (you really have to lose your status), lu Qap (it has to work)

And the part that'll really bake your noodle: if we are still pre timeline-split, will a jaunt into the tunnels below Chateau Picard in the 25th Century suddenly reveal borgified humans transported into the walls?

They have a lot to undo anyway. I guess half of next week's episode will be them traveling to previous scenes and MiB-neuralizing people and cleaning up all the butterfly mess.

Did everyone just miss that conversation about him being away at school in the first few episodes?

Not everyone will remember one throwaway line from 8 weeks ago... and why is one kid at a 24/7 school, while the other one gets time at home to play? Perhaps Robert was sent away because he was a bully, and Picard got to stay home and build ships, which made Robert even bullier

To clarify, it was during the scene with Jurati and the Borg queen, when Jurati says something like "I just discovered the computer can make a hologram from anyone who's been on the ship." and then Elron appreared.

They could've made Picard holos, Seven holos, evil husband holos, all with memories or personalities as they were...

 

[Tuskin38]

I hate to say it because I Iove the man, but he just seems old, slow, and tired in every scene. He's really showing his age.

I think it's just the way he's playing Picard. He feels younger (and looks younger tbh) outside of the show.

 

[KennyB]

I think it's just the way he's playing Picard. He feels younger (and looks younger tbh) outside of the show.

Hell man, I hope I look as good and can still work at 81 like P-Stew!

 

[Airmandan]

So given 7’s stamens about how she considered Icheb a son, couldn’t it be feasible that she demanded if she joined Starfleet that she’d be stationed with him, and Starfleet thought the idea of having two former Borg serving together would be too much of a security risk? It’s a stretch but it seems reasonable to me given the lack of info.

 

[Amasov]

I don't like to say this at all, but, I've almost entirely lost interest in this story. It just hasn't managed to keep me invested in what's going on. Season 2 got off to an exceptionally great start, but, around episode 5 I started to feel my own impatience getting the better of me. The pacing of this season is absolutely killing me. Too often it just felt like the story didn't get us anywhere or that there wasn't enough of it to be sustained across multiple episodes.

I'm ready to be done, honestly.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Very good episode! No idea where it will go next week. But... "there must be two Renes... One who lives, and one who dies." Does this refer to Renee succeeding on the Europa mission, and Rene dying in the fire in the regular timeline?

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

I think the 2 Renées, one who lives and one who dies bit will require somehow splitting the timeline. Presently the timeline has been overwritten, the Prime was changed into the Confederation Universe.

I believe that in order for Picard and co. to ultimately be successful they need for the two Universes to branch off into separate and ongoing realities, both a reality where Renée dies and the Confederation comes to pass, and where Renée is successful in her mission to Io, fulfilling the destiny she had in the Prime timeline, as referred to by Picard in the speech at Starfleet Academy in the season premiere.

By ensuring both realities are allowed to coexist the Agnes/Borg Queen hybrid can continue to exist in the new divergent Confederation Universe and develop her new Borg Cooperative into the ship we saw in The Star Gazer, as others have said, with the Confederation’s La Sirena at its center.

At at some point the masked Jurati Borg Queen would close the temporal loop that leads to her creation by traveling to the Prime universe at the time they appear asking to join the Federation and demanding to talk to Picard, who will have had his consciousness reinserted into his Prime body (along with everyone else, save Jurati, who will be off creating a new alternate Borg history in the Confederate universe) before initiating the Stargazer’s self destruct.

Splitting the timeline into 2 via 2 Renées with 2 fates and 2 subsequent realities would likely depend on Q, potentially using the last of his energy/essence/being to set things right. Q could complete whatever lesson about love, or cooperation, or togetherness, or whatever he’s trying to teach Jean-Luc, and end it all by sacrificing himself, to finally give his life the meaning he craves.

I’m probably way off by a lot, but it would make the most sense to me, based off the “two Renées, one who lives and one who dies,” comment, and the way temporal mechanics have behaved throughout this story.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Hell man, I hope I look as good and can still work at 81 like P-Stew!

Testify!

 

[Jedi Marso]

Very good episode! No idea where it will go next week. But... "there must be two Renes... One who lives, and one who dies." Does this refer to Renee succeeding on the Europa mission, and Rene dying in the fire in the regular timeline?

A lot of people jumped on this theory right away, but I'm not seeing it. I feel like she's referring to some sort of timeline split, which is necessary if the Jurati collective is to breach universes to contact Picard in the Prime timeline in ep1.

 

[Paul755]

I liked the episode. Even with the dark kinda-retcon on Picards mom.

but one thing has me kinda curious. When they save the day and return to the 24th century…it still won’t be their 24th century right. They will be in an alternate timeline. Because unless the 21st century Borg Queen takes Queen Jurati down, none of the big Borg events happen right. Because QJ won’t be a ruthless oppressor/assimilator. Meaning no El Aurian refugees that need rescuing by the Enterprise B, no Locutus, no Wolf 359, Lore is still alive and Data is without emotions, no Hugh, no need to save First Contact, Ben Sisko may be still destined to be the Emissary but he does it with Jennifer by his side, etc…

am I just over thinking this or did they create a whole lot of timey-wimy issues.

 

[fireproof78]

Not everyone will remember one throwaway line from 8 weeks ago.

In this fandom that hyperfocuses on tiny screenshot details about ships, background computer graphics and every line?

Let's just say I find that hard to believe.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I liked the episode. Even with the dark kinda-retcon on Picards mom.

but one thing has me kinda curious. When they save the day and return to the 24th century…it still won’t be their 24th century right. They will be in an alternate timeline. Because unless the 21st century Borg Queen takes Queen Jurati down, none of the big Borg events happen right. Because QJ won’t be a ruthless oppressor/assimilator. Meaning no El Aurian refugees that need rescuing by the Enterprise B, no Locutus, no Wolf 359, Lore is still alive and Data is without emotions, no Hugh, no need to save First Contact, Ben Sisko may be still destined to be the Emissary but he does it with Jennifer by his side, etc…

am I just over thinking this or did they create a whole lot of timey-wimy issues.

I'm inclined to think this is an alternate timeline due to the fact this version of Guinen never met Picard due to the fact Confederation Picard never went back to meet Mark Twain.

So the season will end with Agnes crossing universes with HER Borg to join the Federation - A much smaller more managable bunch of cyborgs who offer to protect the Federation against the Borg-Borg.

Which is actually more coherent than most Star Trek timey wimeyness.

 

[gweeps]

I wonder if Q is causing Jean-Luc's flashbacks to his childhood?

 

[gweeps]

I liked the episode. Even with the dark kinda-retcon on Picards mom.

but one thing has me kinda curious. When they save the day and return to the 24th century…it still won’t be their 24th century right. They will be in an alternate timeline. Because unless the 21st century Borg Queen takes Queen Jurati down, none of the big Borg events happen right. Because QJ won’t be a ruthless oppressor/assimilator. Meaning no El Aurian refugees that need rescuing by the Enterprise B, no Locutus, no Wolf 359, Lore is still alive and Data is without emotions, no Hugh, no need to save First Contact, Ben Sisko may be still destined to be the Emissary but he does it with Jennifer by his side, etc…

am I just over thinking this or did they create a whole lot of timey-wimy issues.

Kirk might not end up in the Nexus either if the Enterprise-B doesn't have to rescue the El-Aurians.

 

[Guy Gardener]

This revelation about the Borg being Samaritans is bullshit. They have always been Samaritans. Its just that they have been mildly proactive about it, helping people before they hit rock bottom.