Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x13 - "Coming Home"

[cooleddie74]

Zora in some respects is a hyperevolution of the same kind of AI that was spawned aboard the Enterprise-D in "Emergence(TNG)," only that AI couldn't communicate except via holodeck imagery and computer language and chose to leave the Enterprise to pursue its destiny independent of Starfleet.

 

[Sci]

Very minor thoughts about the President of United Earth:

I don't like that the writers decided to make the leader of United Earth a president instead of a prime minister.

This isn't really a continuity issue, because it's been a thousand years and United Earth could easily have developed a new constitution since then. But ENT S4 established that the United Earth government official in charge of establishing the Coalition of Planets held the title of "Minister," and that strongly implies that United Earth in the 2150s used a parliamentary system.

The post-finale ENT novels went with this, and established that the real leader was the Prime Minister of United Earth, with the President of United Earth serving in a mostly-ceremonial role, akin to the Federal President of Germany and the Federal Chancellor, or the President of Barbados and the Prime Minister of Barbados. This is a totally subjective thing, but I would have much preferred it if the DIS writers had gone with that -- if Stacey Abrams had cameoed as the Prime Minister of United Earth rather than the president.

In fairness, it does occur to me that the writers were careful not to establish explicit details about the United Earth government. In "... But to Connect," General Ndoye says only, "We recently elected new leadership" rather than explicitly saying the president was popularly-elected. And the things we see the U.E. President do in "Coming Home" -- assisting in the evacuation, arriving aboard Federation Headquarters to meet with the Federation President to announce U.E. is rejoining the Federation -- are the sorts of things that a mostly-ceremonial president might do. So anyone really attached to the parliamentary system could probably still interpret DIS S4 as allowing for a Prime Minister of United Earth.

(For that matter, someone who prefers the French or Swiss systems could interpret them as possibilities too.)

Also, I just feel a little presidented-out. In the past month, we've gotten the President of the United Federation of Planets, the Vice President of the United Federation of Planets, the President of Ni'Var, the Vice President of Ni'Var, the President of the Confederation of Earth, and now the President of United Earth. That's a lot of presidents and vice presidents! Six of them -- it's unpresidented! I understand the desire to use shorthand that's commonly-understood by the intended primary audience, but I do think having so many presidents and VPs makes the show seem a bit U.S.-centric. Other systems of government exist! It wouldn't have been that hard to have the Federation President say, "I've informed the Federation Council that I'm joining the mission to the Ten-C. Power will be transferred to the President Pro Tempore," or to give the U.E. or Ni'Var leaders different titles.

Again, this is purely a matter of subjective aesthetics. It doesn't really matter. But it's not quite to my taste.

 

[cooleddie74]

Six of them -- it's unpresidented!

 

[Noname Given]

Very minor thoughts about the President of United Earth:

I don't like that the writers decided to make the leader of United Earth a president instead of a prime minister.

This isn't really a continuity issue, because it's been a thousand years and United Earth could easily have developed a new constitution since then. But ENT S4 established that the United Earth government official in charge of establishing the Coalition of Planets held the title of "Minister," and that strongly implies that United Earth in the 2150s used a parliamentary system.

The post-finale ENT novels went with this, and established that the real leader was the Prime Minister of United Earth, with the President of United Earth serving in a mostly-ceremonial role, akin to the Federal President of Germany and the Federal Chancellor, or the President of Barbados and the Prime Minister of Barbados. This is a totally subjective thing, but I would have much preferred it if the DIS writers had gone with that -- if Stacey Abrams had cameoed as the Prime Minister of United Earth rather than the president.

In fairness, it does occur to me that the writers were careful not to establish explicit details about the United Earth government. In "... But to Connect," General Ndoye says only, "We recently elected new leadership" rather than explicitly saying the president was popularly-elected. And the things we see the U.E. President do in "Coming Home" -- assisting in the evacuation, arriving aboard Federation Headquarters to meet with the Federation President to announce U.E. is rejoining the Federation -- are the sorts of things that a mostly-ceremonial president might do. So anyone really attached to the parliamentary system could probably still interpret DIS S4 as allowing for a Prime Minister of United Earth.

(For that matter, someone who prefers the French or Swiss systems could interpret them as possibilities too.)

Also, I just feel a little presidented-out. In the past month, we've gotten the President of the United Federation of Planets, the Vice President of the United Federation of Planets, the President of Ni'Var, the Vice President of Ni'Var, the President of the Confederation of Earth, and now the President of United Earth. That's a lot of presidents and vice presidents! Six of them -- it's unpresidented! I understand the desire to use shorthand that's commonly-understood by the intended primary audience, but I do think having so many presidents and VPs makes the show seem a bit U.S.-centric. Other systems of government exist! It wouldn't have been that hard to have the Federation President say, "I've informed the Federation Council that I'm joining the mission to the Ten-C. Power will be transferred to the President Pro Tempore," or to give the U.E. or Ni'Var leaders different titles.

Again, this is purely a matter of subjective aesthetics. It doesn't really matter. But it's not quite to my taste.

This is still primarily a U.S. based show, primarily catering to a U.S, audience (that's where the majority of P+ subscribers are; so while the U.S. top governmental position is a President -- so to is the top governmental position of the UFP.

Because that's what the casual U.S. viewer is used to.

 

[Sci]

This is still primarily a U.S. based show, primarily catering to a U.S, audience (that's where the majority of P+ subscribers are; so while the U.S. top governmental position is a President -- so to is the top governmental position of the UFP.

Because that's what the casual U.S. viewer is used to.

Oh, I get it. I just wish they had mixed things up a bit to be a little less U.S.-centric.

Again, this is just aesthetics. It doesn't actually matter -- I'm not dinging points from the episode or anything over it. And I really like Abrams's cameo. I just wish they'd done something different. Hence why I said, "very minor thoughts."

 

[Sci]

Re: the Federation capital.

It's really interesting to me that "Coming Home" establishes that Tellar never left the Federation. I wonder why the Federation transferred its capital to a space station instead of re-locating to Tellar? I like the idea that this species that can be so grating to Human sensibilities and so dedicated to arguing for arguing's sake would be the one world that's so committed to Federation democracy that they never left though.

 

[Vale]

I like the idea that this species that can be so grating to Human sensibilities and so dedicated to arguing for arguing's sake would be the one world that's so committed to Federation democracy that they never left though.

I suspect something along the lines of:

Earth, Vulcan, Andor: "We're all leaving!"
Tellar:

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Hate to burst your bubble; but TNG S1 - "Datalore" made it clear that Lore could and DID fully communicate to the Crystalline Entity and called it to the planet to wipe oout the colonist 16 years earlier; and almost did the same thing to the crew of the 1701-D. The only reason teh Entity left is that it couldn't get through the 1701-D's shields...
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/114.htm

Yes, I suppose they MAY have done a retcon in TNG S5 - "Silicon Avatar" to make sure that the audience felt what the scientist who ultimately destroyed the CE was 'wrong' (and no, I don't think she was at all)...but they had to give something for jean-Luc Picard to pontificate about at the end of the episode so we all knew what the 'right thing to do' was.

I don't see how that "burst my bubble" in any way as knowing that Lore could communicate with the Crystalline Entity didn't mean that Picard and crew knew how to do it too, or that Lore sent the Entity any message more complex than "There is food here."

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: the Federation capital.

It's really interesting to me that "Coming Home" establishes that Tellar never left the Federation. I wonder why the Federation transferred its capital to a space station instead of re-locating to Tellar? I like the idea that this species that can be so grating to Human sensibilities and so dedicated to arguing for arguing's sake would be the one world that's so committed to Federation democracy that they never left though.

I think the Federation's situation was so tenuous at that point that they felt a mobile station that could rush to each crisis and show the flag was more important than digging in their heels and trying to hold on to the one last founding member. Especially one that might take up the contrary point just for the sake of argument if you started defending your reason for staying there.

 

[StarMan]

They did. You just missed it.

Like hell I did.

 

[dupersuper]

At this point in time, warp speed should be fast enough that it should only take a few weeks to get from one side of the Galaxy to another.

What would that be? Warp 9.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999?
At this point warp drive should've been replaced by something - likely several somethings - that can.

This was a big let down for me.

Book should have stayed dead. What he did was unforgivable.

Unforgivable? I guess I forgive far easier than you...

Yeah, it was a cop out for Book to be saved from death.

Interesting how the Ten-C aliens are kinda like the Prophets, having to be educated on what it is to be an individual creature.

How is that like the Prophets?

I think this was a pretty good finale that could have been that much better if there was one added scene at the end - Tarka awakening. Somewhere, anywhere, and he can be dead as a doorknob, but whether it's Species 10-C doing it or something else, some hint that something happened beyond him exploding.

How would that make it better?

In fiction, choices need permanent consequences to be meaningful.

How about in non-fiction?

John McCain appeared on 24. Nobody made a big deal about that.

Half of DC appeared on Parks & Rec.

 

[Vale]

I don't see how that "burst my bubble" in any way as knowing that Lore could communicate with the Crystalline Entity didn't mean that Picard and crew knew how to do it too, or that Lore sent the Entity any message more complex than "There is food here."

We see Lore sending more complex messages than that to the Crystalline Entity multiple times though:

"Crystal Entity. Upon arriving here you can identify me as the machine named Data..."

"Crystal form, I identify myself as Data, advising you to stop your attack. The humans here are powerful, capable of injuring or even destroying you."

"Very good. You've understood perfectly so far. Next, I'll signal that I'm about to transport something out, at which time the deflector shields will turn off for a moment, and if you move in at that time..."

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Abrams has become best-known for her work trying to increase voter registration and turnout in the African-American community and fighting laws designed to make it harder for black people to vote. So I would say the political point they were making was, "Racist voter suppression is bad; more democracy is good."

Better writers would do that using plot rather than just a cameo that will go over the heads of about 99% of the countries on the planet.

 

[thribs]

What would that be? Warp 9.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999?
At this point warp drive should've been replaced by something - likely several somethings - that can.

They would probably have a new warp scale by then. Warp 20 correspond to the value you gave.

 

[Markonian]

They would probably have a new warp scale by then. Warp 20 correspond to the value you gave.

Potentially. That explains warp 13 in AGT.
However, in practice it would still only be marginally faster than warp 9.95 - the limit is reached when approaching warp 10/transwarp.

 

[Mike Doyle]

(that's where the majority of P+ subscribers are;

I know this wasn'tyour point but thats where most of the subscribers to P+ are becasue its not available in a lot of places. In the UK we were luckly to get Disco when they backtracked off pulling it completely (still had to buy the series), lucky Picard is still on Prime and we have to wait for P+ for Prodigy.

 

[Vale]

Potentially. That explains warp 13 in AGT.
However, in practice it would still only be marginally faster than warp 9.95 - the limit is reached when approaching warp 10/transwarp.

I played with one of the accepted warp speed equations once to set the upper limit at 20 instead of 10, but keep warps 1 through 9 the same as the TNG scale. Rather pleasingly, "warp 13" turned out to correspond more-or-less exactly with warp 9.975 on the TNG scale – or Voyager's top speed, according to "Caretaker".

 

[Sci]

That probably worked better for those of us not in the US because I had no idea who she was when I first saw her. Reading up on the episode after viewing, however, I did think it was an odd choice, and I'm left wondering what political point they're trying to make.

Abrams has become best-known for her work trying to increase voter registration and turnout in the African-American community and fighting laws designed to make it harder for black people to vote. So I would say the political point they were making was, "Racist voter suppression is bad; more democracy is good."

Better writers would do that using plot rather than just a cameo that will go over the heads of about 99% of the countries on the planet.

I'm sorry, but that's a really petty response to attack them as bad writers because they included a subtext you didn't get.

The subtext of Abrams's appearance is not a necessary and vital element of the story. It is an "Easter Egg" for people who recognize who Abrams is. It is not Michelle Paradise's job to explain every piece of subtext to the audience, and it is certainly not her creative obligation to explain Easter Eggs. This is the equivalent of calling Alfred Hitchcock a bad director because one didn't recognize his face when he made a cameo in North by Northwest, or calling Taika Waititi a bad writer because one didn't recognize the thematic irony of using a song entitled "Immigrant Song" to against depictions of the people of the former colonial empire of Asgard becoming refugees at the finale of Thor: Ragnarok, or calling Francis Ford Coppola a bad director because you didn't recognize the parallels between the final scene of the film and earlier scenes with Michael's father.

Writers not spelling out every piece of subtext for the audience is not an indicator of a lack of quality work.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I'm sorry, but that's a really petty response to attack them as bad writers because they included a subtext you didn't get.

The subtext of Abrams's appearance is not a necessary and vital element of the story. It is an "Easter Egg" for people who recognize who Abrams is. It is not Michelle Paradise's job to explain every piece of subtext to the audience, and it is certainly not her creative obligation to explain Easter Eggs. This is the equivalent of calling Alfred Hitchcock a bad director because one didn't recognize his face when he made a cameo in North by Northwest, or calling Taika Waititi a bad writer because one didn't recognize the thematic irony of using a song entitled "Immigrant Song" to against depictions of the people of the former colonial empire of Asgard becoming refugees at the finale of Thor: Ragnarok, or calling Francis Ford Coppola a bad director because you didn't recognize the parallels between the final scene of the film and earlier scenes with Michael's father.

Writers not spelling out every piece of subtext for the audience is not an indicator of a lack of quality work.

I have accused them of being bad writers for a vast number of reasons over the years not just because of this one thing. But this one thing is one of the results of that writing. Nuance replaced by what was essentially a picture of someone flashing on screen.

It wasn't even subtext and has nothing got to do with the examples you gave. Immigrant Song is about people who "come from the land of the ice and snow" and were about to be immigrants so there was a smart not between screen and song. What was the connection between Abrams and what was happening in Discovery?

 

[Mike Doyle]

I have accused them of being bad writers for a vast number of reasons over the years not just because of this one thing. But this one thing is one of the results of that writing. Nuance replaced by what was essentially a picture of someone flashing on screen.

I’m from the UK. I had no idea who she was. What I got from that scene was that the president of Earth wanted to join the federation because it had been demonstrated that working together achieved the best outcome.