Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

pfft The Doctor isn't even his own wife pre or post sex-change

I'm emphatically not going to Google it to confirm, but I'd bet my wee bairns that the last couple of years since the Doctor did change sexes have likely already yielded a fair smattering of fanfic out there which might beg to differ...

Maybe not yet... give her time. Hhe's still got plenty of regenerations left to figure out a way to become her own grandpa.

So Susan is The Doctor?

-MMoM

 

[USS Fardell]

The twelfth episode of season 3. Discovery goes to Boreth, while Spock and Burnham chase after a Section 31 ship. Thus there are two plots. Pike investigating the Time Crystals, and Control laying a trap for Burnham. Both of these plots are presented well. However Chancellor L'Rel is involved as well. The D-7 ship looks suitably classic also. There are other moments through the episode that add to the worldbuilding (and not just on Boreth). More on those, below. To begin, Discovery spore-jumps to Boreth.
(Stamets has fixed it, but more on the topic of the discussion between Culber and Reno below.) Pike goes down to Boreth after L'Rel arrives. That it's not up to her, but up to the Monks themselves, whether he gets access to the Time Crystals is understandable. Such a sacred place would have autonomy (and this, at least is consistent with Rightful Heir, where Gowron chafes at the Monk's decisions about the Kahless clone, even before his nature is realised). The revelation, that the chief Monk is Tyler and L'Rel's son, is an interesting one.
Time Crystals distorting time. Who would have thought of it. (But little relation to the real life time crystals). The way it was presented, with a tree growing in apparent seconds, was done rather well. As was Pike's realisation of his fate. The depiction of the radiation accident was appropriately horrific. (The re-imagination of the beeping chair was quite in line with the other re-imaginings. e.g If Memory Serves and the Enterprise.) However, this particular fate being fixed because he takes that Time Crystal just raises more questions.
Then there is Spock and Burnham on the Section 31 ship. I didn't see it coming that Gant would be Control, so the reveal came as a shock. But why would Control tell Burnham his plan rather than just try to take her over? The time spent gloating was a waste of time, but it certainly saved Burnham from being taken over. (Not saying 'assimilated'. It may look Borg, but I don't think it's the origin of the Collective.) And what did it plan to do about Spock, who would have known that something was up with Control!Burnham?
Back to Culbur and Reno. Certainly seems believable that she would go to him because Staments is distracted thinking about him. That her spouse was lost in the War was also believable. It was certainly an interesting scene, adding some levity to the episode. Overall, it was well worth seeing. 8.25/10.

 

[RPOW0614]

Great episode. So many good things and one bad thing.

Good things:
Pike seeing his future and still going forward.
Michael and Spock boarding the shuttle, such a brother\sister scene.
Control spacing an entire ships crew.
Reno needs to be their permanent engineer. Love her directness.
The return of Gant.
The entire episode.

Bad thing:
Time crystal, really? WTF? Just call it "Plot device Unobtainium"

I understand the reason behind needing the time crystal but I thought it cheapened what was otherwise a stellar episode. Maybe this is what "The Guardian of Forever" is made out of. Maybe when the crystals grow too large they become donut shaped and sentient.

One last minor complaint....
L'Rell has too many prosthetics and it makes her look like a blue puffer fish. Mary Chieffo is a pretty woman and that is lost under this new version of the Klingon makeup. You could still see the actual face of Susie Plaxon when she played K’Ehleyr. Please expose L'Rell to the Augment virus as soon as possible.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay, context is important! I am not in the field of mental health, but I have friends who are, and I certainly trust you about the challenges involved. If you had written "People NEEDING MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT accept paradoxes like this all the time, that things can both be changed and not at the same time," I wouldn't have blinked. However, I hope and trust that such people are more the exception than the rule, and neither Pike nor the audience should be assumed to fall into that category.

In my experience, both through study and practice, human beings are facing paradoxes on a daily basis, whether they recognize them or not. Human beings are paradoxical creatures, able to hold on to two contradictory ideas often at a time.

I will make no assumptions regarding the general audience but I think that humans are more encountering paradoxes than they would like to admit, not just those in need of mental health treatment.

 

[lawman]

I will make no assumptions regarding the general audience but I think that humans are more encountering paradoxes than they would like to admit, not just those in need of mental health treatment.

I remain genuinely curious about what sort of examples you have in mind here. In my experience paradoxes (even perceived ones, never mind genuine ones) are extraordinarily rare in real life, and when one does make itself known it tends to elicit cognitive dissonance in the person perceiving it.

 

[fireproof78]

I remain genuinely curious about what sort of examples you have in mind here. In my experience paradoxes (even perceived ones, never mind genuine ones) are extraordinarily rare in real life, and when one does make itself known it tends to elicit cognitive dissonance in the person perceiving it.

I mean, off the top of my head, I would say the paradox of both acceptance and change is a fundamental part of humanity. As Carl Rogers observed, “The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.”

I think it's just a part of humanity.

 

[Yistaan]

Terminator style Control robot: Hasta la vista Christopher (immediately installs malware into Starfleet computer systems controlling Class-J starship baffle plates).

Pike: No fate but what we make. (turns phaser on himself and vaporizes himself)

Spock: Fascinating. The ensuing temporal anomaly will cause mass instabilities in...

(Universe explodes)

 

[saladdays]

I mean, off the top of my head, I would say the paradox of both acceptance and change is a fundamental part of humanity. As Carl Rogers observed, “The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.”

I think it's just a part of humanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

 

[Woulfe]

Doctor - People think time is a linear progression of cause & effect, but from non-linear point of view it's great big ball of wibbly wobbly timey whimy stuff...

 

[lawman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

I'm certainly not going to tackle all of those individually, but as the top of the article notes, many of them are not actual paradoxes according to a strict definition. Scanning over the list, many of them simply appear to be unsolved problems, logic puzzles, or apparent contradictions that can be clarified with further information.

There are of course genuine and classic paradoxes such as the Liar's Paradox... but those are precisely the kinds of things that cause people cognitive dissonance.

(As for the Carl Rogers example upthread, that seems to me merely a philosophical statement about an initial position, and an debatable one at that. I really don't think tolerance for paradox is "just a part of humanity." But I'm content to leave it at "agree to disagree" at this point... and merely return to the observation that it's unseemly for Trek to be presenting a plot that simultaneously relies upon and negates free will in different aspects of the same story.)

 

[fireproof78]

it's unseemly for Trek to be presenting a plot that simultaneously relies upon and negates free will in different aspects of the same story.

Unfortunately, as with many things, Trek let that genie out of the bottle with Kirk's destiny, and the Guardian stating that time had resumed its shape. There is a certain level of predestination paradox (for want of a better term) at times.

On the subject paradoxes, I don't think tolerance for paradox is part of humanity. I just think there are paradoxes of human existence that occur on a daily basis. Whether we acknowledge them or not is a different story

ETA: I think definition of terms would be appropriate, but I can appreciate the agree to disagree moment

 

[Noname Given]

Unfortunately, as with many things, Trek let that genie out of the bottle with Kirk's destiny, and the Guardian stating that time had resumed its shape. There is a certain level of predestination paradox (for want of a better term) at times.

Yep - And you have to wonder (given the dialogue of the GoF) in in fact the Guarduian could ALSO send someone into the Future as well as the past. It may never have occurred to Kirk or Spock to even contemplate that possibility.

I say that based on this exchange between Kirk, Spock and the GoF:

GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever.

KIRK: Are you machine or being?

GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.

SPOCK: I see no reason for answers to be couched in riddles.

GUARDIAN: I answer as simply as your level of understanding makes possible.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Terminator style Control robot: Hasta la vista Christopher (immediately installs malware into Starfleet computer systems controlling Class-J starship baffle plates).

Pike: No fate but what we make. (turns phaser on himself and vaporizes himself)

Spock: Fascinating. The ensuing temporal anomaly will cause mass instabilities in...

(Universe explodes)

I'm stealing this post

 

[Mudd]

The "Liars paradox" is an artifact of language, not a paradoxical phenomenon.


It's like saying "Where does my fist go when I open my hand?" poses some kind of mystery.

 

[Noname Given]

Can someone explain this plot point to me please? The show starts off with 7 signals which they show on displays and Spock seems to have a map of them since he was a child as well. YET every time a signal pops up they seemed surprised of the location. Shouldn't they already know where just not when? Or am I missing something?

They said Spock's drawing was 'almost identical' <--- That said space is BIG; so even 'almost' isn't enough t find the specific location for a given signal.

 

[Noname Given]

Then what about the original seven signals Starfleet received. Are they not specific? What would the point of them been then?

They appeared and disappeared so quick, Star Fleet couldn't get an exact location - (at least that's what was stated by Pike when he came aboard to take command of Discovery.)

 

[Rainard Fox]

Can someone explain this plot point to me please? The show starts off with 7 signals which they show on displays and Spock seems to have a map of them since he was a child as well. YET every time a signal pops up they seemed surprised of the location. Shouldn't they already know where just not when? Or am I missing something?

Spock has seen a map of signals in his mind two months before they appeared, not since his childhood.

 

[Claudia]

Why exactly is Pike's future unchangeable now? There's no causality between getting the time-stone and him getting in that accident and being irradiated... so he could in fact change this future - by leaving Starfleet for example... And let's not mention that we've seen better technology (*cough* Ariam) than a wheelchair with a yes/no light.

And Spock and Burnham on that ship... was completely obvious that that guy is somehow evil/a plant/Control. No surprise there, extremely unnecessary side-trip.

 

[Mechanoid1]

Can someone explain this plot point to me please? The show starts off with 7 signals which they show on displays and Spock seems to have a map of them since he was a child as well. YET every time a signal pops up they seemed surprised of the location. Shouldn't they already know where just not when? Or am I missing something?

No thats a question thats been already asked many different threads ago.
I read that the writers started at the end of the story and wrote their way back to the begining. My theory is that with all the havok in the direction of plots and reshoots. They lost track of the sequence of events going front to back.
It makes no sense starting with seven signals on the 1st episode. Then they say that a new signal has just appeared then after a few episodes they start saying that the third of seven and the fourth of seventh signal has just appeared.
If you start with seven and then seven more appear, that equals 14 total. The plots of this show defies any logic. But hey the production values and the cast relationships are like no other.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Generally enjoyed it. Found Pike's vision of his unpleasant future illuminating, but hardly unexpected. Seems to me that the whole time crystal thing is a bit hokey, but then again, so is the whole spore drive thing.