Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[saladdays]

I

It is not. Those stories just worked with that sort of time travel logic. What is suggested here that in a situation where events otherwise could be altered this lump of rock somehow has an ability to prevent it.

If your criteria is that those stories just "worked" with the time travel logic used, what's to say that the story in Discovery can't work when all is said and done?

And I don't think we all are ever going to agree with what is logical with time travel in Trek anyway.

 

[Longinus]

I
If your criteria is that those stories just "worked" with the time travel logic used, what's to say that the story in Discovery can't work when all is said and done?

I first thought that. Pike seeing his fate and it coming true could be a simple predestination paradox in a story which used deterministic logic. No magic power apart being able to show the future would be required from the crystal. However, the Control storyline in this same season and indeed the whole reason why Pike needed the crystal requires that the time logic is not deterministic... I am willing to overlook such in episodic stories written by different authors and when the stories are not directly linked, but I really cannot overlook it here. It is not logical for Pike to think that he cannot alter his own fate (because time is deterministic) and at the same time think that he can save the galaxy from the Control (because time is not deterministic.)

 

[fireproof78]

How? How does the crystal choose the event to be locked? How does it prevent anyone from altering it? How does this inanimate piece of rock have an ability to manipulate time in manner which would suggest both great intelligence as nigh unlimited power to affect what's happening?


It is not. Those stories just worked with that sort of time travel logic. What is suggested here that in a situation where events otherwise could be altered this lump of rock somehow has an ability to prevent it.

Not to kick this down the road but shouldn't we wait and see?

I mean, for me, it strikes me as similar to the Guardian of Forever where the Guardian can recognize alterations in time and then able to declare that things are as they were once before. Well, that implies, at least to me, that there is an order of some kind to the time line that can been in some way, manner, or form. Even Guinan could sense when a timeline wasn't right.

There is clearly more to the time crystals than just dismissing them as "inanimate lumps of rock" and we don't have enough information yet.

For now, it works for me. Doesn't for you. I'm OK with not knowing and letting the story play out, rather than demanding answers now.

I first thought that. Pike seeing his fate and it coming true could be a simple predestination paradox in a story which used deterministic logic. No magic power apart being able to show the future would be required from the crystal. However, the Control storyline in this same season and indeed the whole reason why Pike needed the crystal requires that the time logic is not deterministic... I am willing to overlook such in episodic stories written by different authors and when the stories are not directly linked, but I really cannot overlook it here. It is not logical for Pike to think that he cannot alter his own fate (because time is deterministic) and at the same time think that he can save the galaxy from the Control (because time is not deterministic.)

One comes from Pike being true to himself. The other comes from Pike determined to save lives and being true to himself.

People accept paradoxes like this all the time, that things can both be changed and not at the same time. Part of my daily work. The key is figuring what can and can't be changed. Pike is clearly working to figure it out. One future has deemed acceptable and the other he has not. It is not in his nature to just accept not doing something to preserve life.

 

[Vger23]

Feels like you're moving the goalposts here!

There are two possibilities. On the one hand, it could be (as you wrote) "...an elaborate fantasy manufactured by Q. ... There's no actual time travel or timeline manipulation involved here. ... There's never, at any time, any risk that the 'possible future' presented will come to pass." In that case, it's basically the equivalent of a more-sophisticated holodeck simulation.

On the other hand, if there is timeline manipulation going on, then it could come to pass, which is precisely what the word "possible" means.

Of course there are myriad possible futures. Not all of them are equally probable, but they're all possible, until any given one collapses from a quantum probability state into reality. Star Trek does not take place in a deterministic universe; the future is never fixed. (Indeed, even the past can be changed.)

That doesn't make it "meaningless" or "bullshit." On the contrary, that's where the drama comes from, because human agency matters. If the future were predetermined, and hence could be known with certainty, that's what would make things meaningless.

(And that's the thorny issue with the Pike storyline here. The implication that the Trek universe can contain anything resembling a fixed "fate" is disturbing. As I noted upthread, we accept it as fixed, only because we've seen it in "The Menagerie." But we're not actually part of that universe; we have a privileged viewpoint. There's no reason Pike or anyone around him should accept it as fixed.)

yeah, I don't know bro. Sounds good.

 

[Tuskin38]

I didn't notice that the S31 ship had a registry the first time through

 

[Search4]

In a nasty twist of fate Pike’s accident causes the end of Control.

 

[MarsWeeps]

I always took it to mean that the physics of the Doctor Who universe literally makes it impossible to change a fixed point without fucking everything up. My assertion is backed-up by what happened in the timeline where River Song didn't "kill" the Doctor at Lake Silencio--everything happened at once.

 

[Ovation]

Just remember, folks. No time travel story withstands scrutiny. Be kind to your blood pressure and take the story as it comes.

 

[fireproof78]

Just remember, folks. No time travel story withstands scrutiny. Be kind to your blood pressure and take the story as it comes.

You mean...it's not real??????

 

[Alan Roi]

View attachment 9048

Robert Heinlein would be proud.

 

[Harpsichord]

Robert Heinlein would be proud.

pfft The Doctor isn't even his own wife pre or post sex-change

 

[Alan Roi]

Not to kick this down the road but shouldn't we wait and see?

I mean, for me, it strikes me as similar to the Guardian of Forever where the Guardian can recognize alterations in time and then able to declare that things are as they were once before. Well, that implies, at least to me, that there is an order of some kind to the time line that can been in some way, manner, or form. Even Guinan could sense when a timeline wasn't right.

There is clearly more to the time crystals than just dismissing them as "inanimate lumps of rock" and we don't have enough information yet.

For now, it works for me. Doesn't for you. I'm OK with not knowing and letting the story play out, rather than demanding answers now.


One comes from Pike being true to himself. The other comes from Pike determined to save lives and being true to himself.

People accept paradoxes like this all the time, that things can both be changed and not at the same time. Part of my daily work. The key is figuring what can and can't be changed. Pike is clearly working to figure it out. One future has deemed acceptable and the other he has not. It is not in his nature to just accept not doing something to preserve life.

A but its not just about him not doing something about preserving life that is against his nature. One could do that as a safety inspector or actuarian or lawyer who never actually risks his life to do so. The Pike we've been presented to us has kind of a far more hands on Jesus complex. He has been shown to be repeatedly drawn to acts of personal sacrifice. And I could see him rationalizing his fate as such a challenge to his beliefs.

A character comparison to him would be Brad Dourif's Brother Edward from the similarly powerful Babylon 5 episode, Passing Through Gethsemane.

 

[Alan Roi]

pfft The Doctor isn't even his own wife pre or post sex-change

Maybe not yet... give her time. She's still got plenty of regenerations left to figure out a way to become her own grandpa.

 

[Rainard Fox]

Of course. Lying to a member of a religious order definitely doesn't qualify as one. (At least, not unless you're dealing with a theocracy, something the Klingon Empire isn't.)

Previous conflict with the Klingon Empire was escalated because the single Federation Starfleet captain didn't find a couple of proper words, wasn't it?

Another thing to keep in mind is that higher ranking officers can and will order subordinates to break promises to alien species. Data made a promise to aliens in TNG Clues, and Picard and the crew browbeat him into breaking it.
PICARD: Well, Data, as you can see, we're back where it all started.
DATA: We must leave immediately, sir.
PICARD: Why?
DATA: Any further delay would put us all at grave risk.
PICARD: Why? What is the source of that risk? The energy field?
DATA: I cannot say.
PICARD: Data, you sound as if you're stuck in a feedback loop. You certainly can say. You have free will, you have a choice.
DATA: My silence is not by choice, sir.
PICARD: Not by choice? Are you somehow being controlled by that force? Did Geordi miss something when he examined you?
DATA: Geordi's examination was exemplary.
PICARD: Then why are you compelled to disobey my orders? How? During the missing day, were you contacted by Starfleet? Did they order you to conceal the truth from us?
DATA: I cannot answer that. We must leave, sir.
PICARD: This ship isn't going anywhere. Not until I get an answer. Now who gave you that order?

Pike's promise to Tenavik won't hold water with Starfleet Command.

That's a reason on what I can't watch TNG.
Let's see, an officer tells to his captain that they have to leave this place to avoid a certain risk, but he cannot say, what a risk it is. Is it a time to brutforce him to answer or is it a moment to move a ship with a crew in a safe place and looking for answers later?

 

[lawman]

Not to kick this down the road but shouldn't we wait and see?

Not necessarily. Sometimes a story is clearly foreshadowing future revelations, and then this attitude makes sense. But in the case at hand, there's no indication at all that the writers are planning to resolve the dilemma @Longinus identifies, or indeed that they even recognize it as a dilemma. If future episodes prove me wrong, I'll happily admit it, but I'm not holding my breath.

People accept paradoxes like this all the time, that things can both be changed and not at the same time.

They do? Who? How? Outside the boundaries of religion, I honestly can't think of a single example.

Just remember, folks. No time travel story withstands scrutiny. Be kind to your blood pressure and take the story as it comes.

That's not true, though. Plenty of well-thought-out, scrupulously logical time-travel stories have been written over the years.

 

[gblews]

Was his decision courageous? Yes, absolutely. But I dislike the aspect of it you both highlight here, because "fate" is simply not something any Starfleet captain should believe in.

But my response was to your statement that we didn't learn anything new in Pike's "outing" on Boreth, and that's not true.

The future is not yet written.

The fact that we (the audience) know that Pike will wind up in that chair doesn't mean there's any reason at all that he should accept it as inevitable. There are also the very dark implications of Pike having to go through the next several years of his life with this hanging over his head.

Interesting topic. You may be right, however, I tend to believe that perhaps "fate", though not already "written", may already have happened. What if the time crystals actually showed Pike (or took him to) a dimension in which time does not exist and there is no "future" or "past". Everything is happening concurrently.

So what Pike saw was the result of decisions he had already made. In other words Pike saw what everyone would see (their own past and future happening all at once), with the "veil" of time lifted.

For these reasons and more, I agree with the poster who suggested it would've been far better to have Pike's "memories" of the future fade once he left the monastery.

That would have seriously undercut the drama and gravitas of Pike's sacrifice. It would have been something that you would very likely have complained about.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Maybe not yet... give her time. he's still got plenty of regenerations left to figure out a way to become his own grandpa.

Judging by some fan posts on FB and photos people what 13 and Yaz to hook up or something.

 

[Ovation]

Plenty of well-thought-out, scrupulously logical time-travel stories have been written over the years.

They are extraordinarily well camouflaged. I’ve read/watched over 100–some are better at consistency and logic than others. None survives close scrutiny.

 

[fireproof78]

Not necessarily. Sometimes a story is clearly foreshadowing future revelations, and then this attitude makes sense. But in the case at hand, there's no indication at all that the writers are planning to resolve the dilemma @Longinus identifies, or indeed that they even recognize it as a dilemma. If future episodes prove me wrong, I'll happily admit it, but I'm not holding my breath.

They keep saying things will work out. Now, I'm not holding my breath either, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. My attitude is to wait until I have all the information.

They do? Who? How? Outside the boundaries of religion, I honestly can't think of a single example.

Then I suggest not going into mental health One of the biggest challenges that I work with clients is learning the balancing between those things they can control and the things they cannot, and how to accept those intense feelings at the same time.

If you want to dig more I suggest reading a little bit of Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.

 

[lawman]

Okay, context is important! I am not in the field of mental health, but I have friends who are, and I certainly trust you about the challenges involved. If you had written "People NEEDING MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT accept paradoxes like this all the time, that things can both be changed and not at the same time," I wouldn't have blinked. However, I hope and trust that such people are more the exception than the rule, and neither Pike nor the audience should be assumed to fall into that category.