Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[cooleddie74]

I've always conjectured that Pike was born around 2215 which would have made him roughly Kirk's age when he first assumed command of the Enterprise from Robert April. Commodore Mendez did say that he was roughly Kirk's age but that could have been a reference to Pike's age at the time he served with Spock aboard the Enterprise.

We know Georgiou was born in 2202 based on the Shenzhou library computer records that Voq was looking at after the Klingons boarded the ship. That would make her perhaps a decade older than Pike but not necessarily preclude the two attending the Academy at the same time.

 

[Alessandro Piazza]

Who knows? One of them might have attended the Academy for a separate course some time. Granted it requires too much thinking to make sense, but it's not technically impossible.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Who knows? One of them might have attended the Academy for a separate course some time. Granted it requires too much thinking to make sense, but it's not technically impossible.

That's pretty much our jam

 

[cooleddie74]

Hey, Kirk somehow ended up being both an Ensign and a Lieutenant as well as student instructor at the Academy and all before he was 20. If we can rationalize Cadet/Ensign/Lieutenant Kirk's time at the Academy both teaching Gary Mitchell as well as serving with Ben Finney aboard the Republic we can rationalize any officer's timeline at Starfleet Academy.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Hey, Kirk somehow ended up being both an Ensign and a Lieutenant as well as student instructor at the Academy and all before he was 20. If we can rationalize Cadet/Ensign/Lieutenant Kirk's time at the Academy both teaching Gary Mitchell as well as serving with Ben Finney aboard the Republic we can rationalize any officer's timeline at Starfleet Academy.

Multi-tasking

 

[GNDN18]

we can rationalize any officer's timeline at Starfleet Academy.

Here, Midshipman. This’ll help:

 

[cooleddie74]

Kirk-El.

 

[DaveyNY]

Kirk-El.

OOOooooooo...
The Fortress of Kobayashi Maru

 

[cooleddie74]

Superham!

 

[Alan Roi]

Here's what we know--Pike saw "a" future where horrible tragedy awaits, is told that future is immutable if he takes the crystal in the present, chooses to take the crystal (after weighing his horrific fate vs. inaction). That's what we know. That, and roughly a decade on, Pike suffers a horrible tragedy that is nearly identical, if not entirely, to what he saw a decade earlier on Boreth.

What we don't know? Quite a bit. Here are some possible scenarios for the intervening decade.

Pike keeps it to himself the entire time, does nothing to avert the event. Possible, but seems incompatible with his overall character.

Pike keeps it to himself, does all he can to avert the event, fails. Much more likely outcome--consistent with his character and core values, yet also in keeping with what we (aware of the events post tragedy) know.

Pike tells Starfleet, does all he can to avert the event, fails. Not much different than previous option, in the end.

Is the actual tragedy the one Pike witnessed or is it just something very similar, after Pike has tirelessly worked to prevent such tragedies? We don't know. We cannot know based on available evidence.

Also, we see him in the immediate aftermath of the "vision of the future". How do we know the knowledge doesn't fade after a few days? Ah, but he could have immediately recorded his experience--just in case. Perhaps...if he was a machine. Just coming to grips with what he saw might reasonably delay him from making detailed notes long enough to have those details slip away unexpectedly.


Of course, none of this occurred to me during the scene--I was too busy admiring the craft of the scene as acted to pause the show and begin dissecting it for logical flaws. It's entertainment, not a logic puzzle.

Here's something else we know about Christopher Pike. He believes in sacrifice. He was willing to sacrifice himself in the first episode we meet him. He leaps on a phaser about to go off in the next episode. He admits that he puts himself in dangerous situations because he believes being left out of the war denied him that opportunity. When Burnham is willing to die to trap the Red Angel he doesn't argue with the idea of it, and only cancels things when it looks like it failed.

As far as we've seen, this is the man Christopher Pike believes he should be.

 

[Yistaan]

Here's something else we know about Christopher Pike. He believes in sacrifice. He was willing to sacrifice himself in the first episode we meet him. He leaps on a phaser about to go off in the next episode. He admits that he puts himself in dangerous situations because he wants to. When Burnham is willing to die to trap the Red Angel he doesn't argue with the idea of it, and only cancels things when it looks like it failed.

As far as we've seen, this is the man Christopher Pike believes is his best possible him. .

Captain Picard believes in sacrifice too. Yet as soon as 'All Good Things' wrapped up, he immediately told his crew the future specifically to avert it (Worf and Riker don't become enemies, etc.)

Picard had no guarantee that doing this wouldn't muck up everything he just accomplished (this is the sneaky Q we're talking about here). If he kept silent about what happened, the 'All Good Things' future may have gone forward as shown. And as far as he knew that timeline was essential in stopping the anomaly.

Thankfully, humanity's existence didn't hinge on the 'All Good Things' future being set in stone (going by the movies), but Picard didn't know that.

Is Picard less of a Starfleet officer than Pike for doing what he did?

 

[Alan Roi]

Captain Picard believes in sacrifice too. Yet as soon as 'All Good Things' wrapped up, he immediately told his crew the future specifically to avert it (Worf and Riker don't become enemies, etc.)

Picard had no guarantee that doing this wouldn't muck up everything he just accomplished. If he kept silent about what happened, the 'All Good Things' future may have gone forward as shown.

Thankfully, humanity's future didn't hinge on the 'All Good Things' future being set in stone (going by the movies), but Picard didn't know that.

Is Picard less of a Starfleet officer than Pike for doing what he did?

He is Jean Luc Picard. Christopher Pike is not Picard. He's not Kirk. He's Pike. We know these men for what they do and what they claim to believe in. None of these men are flawless, but they don't have the same flaws They are all different men, with different interpretations of what it is to be Star Fleet officers as well as men and IMO that is OK,

 

[Yistaan]

He is Jean Luc Picard. Christopher Pike is not Picard. He's not Kirk. We know these men for what the do and what they claim to believe in. They are all different men, with different interpretations of what it is to be Star Fleet officers as well as men and IMO that is OK,

Fair enough.

 

[fireproof78]

Picard had no guarantee that doing this wouldn't muck up everything he just accomplished (this is the sneaky Q we're talking about here). If he kept silent about what happened, the 'All Good Things' future may have gone forward as shown. And as far as he knew that timeline was essential in stopping the anomaly.

He also was far more familiar with Q and the possible machinations than Pike was with the time crystals.

 

[lawman]

Here are some possible scenarios for the intervening decade...

Of course, none of this occurred to me during the scene--I was too busy admiring the craft of the scene as acted to pause the show and begin dissecting it for logical flaws. It's entertainment, not a logic puzzle.

You do an excellent job of summarizing the possibilities, but I'm puzzled by the proposition that you weren't thinking about this while watching. It's as if you think "entertainment" and "logical puzzle" are mutually exclusive categories. Personally, it takes a really, really, really good show (or film, or book) to distract me from noticing any logical flaws in it. The analytical part of my mind just doesn't have an easily accessible off switch...

We don't know when we'll die. Just that we will. We continue on anyway.

True. But most of us try really hard to avoid it!...

Hey, Kirk somehow ended up being both an Ensign and a Lieutenant as well as student instructor at the Academy and all before he was 20. If we can rationalize Cadet/Ensign/Lieutenant Kirk's time at the Academy both teaching Gary Mitchell as well as serving with Ben Finney aboard the Republic we can rationalize any officer's timeline at Starfleet Academy.

I rationalize it by assuming that Kirk returned to the Academy later (post-Farragut?) for postgraduate courses, and taught during that period. Conveniently, the same rationale could explain Georgiou's presence while Pike was an undergrad.

 

[Lord Garth]

True. But most of us try really hard to avoid it!...

The survival instinct. It's natural. But, at the same time, Pike as a Starfleet Officer understands he has to put his life on the line for the Greater Good. Someone of lesser constitution may have decided to do something else.

On the other hand, Pike might believe that the idea of an immutable future is superstition and that it can be changed. That's my view. It's possibly subconsciously his. But, then again, maybe not. If he grew up with religion, he might believe in fate. Which takes us back to his understanding he'll eventually have to put his life on the line for the Greater Good.

Any mission any Starfleet Officer goes on is potentially their last anyway. So he has greater certainty of his circumstances than those under his command who don't truly have any.

Maybe this pushes him in the direction of having Faith. Not necessarily religious faith but an approximation of it because if it doesn't look like he's in a situation where he'll have to save a bunch of Cadets from danger, he'll have faith that he'll come out of a situation intact or will pull through if he's injured in something unrelated.

 

[Rainard Fox]

Who said that Pike and Georgiou were in Academy in the same time? Pike said it to MU Georgiou to check her. After her answer he was sure that she is NOT Philippa Georgiou he knew.

 

[fireproof78]

True. But most of us try really hard to avoid it!...

Save for all those people who run into death filled scenarios.

 

[Alessandro Piazza]

Who said that Pike and Georgiou were in Academy in the same time? Pike said it to MU Georgiou to check her. After her answer he was sure that she is NOT Philippa Georgiou he knew.

I had never actually thought of that. I'm not entirely sold on it though, as I don't think he had enough reason to doubt her at that point.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

potential spoiler

Spoiler

Po from Runaway might be making a comeback