Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Alan Roi]

I think the way Pike keeps things to himself and doesn't tell anyone is illogical and jarring. Look immediately how Riker and La Forge handle things in TNG. It made TNG feel more like a family--

DATA: In relative terms, perhaps not. Nevertheless, it seems clear that my life is to end in the late nineteenth century.
RIKER: Not if we can help it.
DATA: There is no way anyone can prevent it, sir. At some future date, I will be transported back to nineteenth century Earth, where I will die. It has occurred. It will occur.

LAFORGE: So, do you want to talk about it?
DATA: Are you referring to the foreknowledge of my death?
LAFORGE: Yeah.
DATA: I have no particular desire to discuss the matter. Do you need to talk about it?
LAFORGE: Yeah.
DATA: Why?
LAFORGE: Data, this has got to bother you a little.

To put it bluntly, Pike is acting like a non-emotional android Data, not like a human being who would do everything possible to prevent the accident after getting the crystal.

And then there is Kaelon from "Half a Life". Where other people decide to take control of the characters decisions on his future and it doesn't go well at all.

There are plenty of people who have their own ideas of how to deal with their futures and plenty of reasons people chose to deal with their futures in a fatalistic manner. One of my brother's knew he was going to have a short life fought like hell to survive as long as he did and as each part of his body broke down to the point he was suffering all the time. Another one of my brothers at about the same age when my other brother found out his fate, saw his future was as bleak and chose not to stick it out, because he was a different person who made different decision about his future and did not tell anyone about his decision. Heck, my own father hid the fact that he was dying of cancer from me for his own reasons which were important to him. Was one of them right and the others wrong? the other way around? Who's to say?

 

[Nerys Myk]

It was a training cruise. “I might be a little stale…” Kirk let his guard down and people got hurt. In other words, he was human.

Baffle plates rupturing, genetically engineered supermen seeking vengeance. These inspection tours are rough.

At least there were no Delta Rays involved.

Too soon?

 

[Vger23]

I think the fact that there is this much debate over the episode is a testament to how interesting and well-crafted it was.

That's what I think.

There are a lot of smooth-straightforward stories in Star Trek....that nobody gives enough of a shit about to discuss any further. I'm glad DSC has people talking and debating about Star Trek. That's fun to see. It may be polarizing, and people have varied reactions to it...but at least it's not frigging unremarkable.

 

[Longinus]

Yeah Kirk was getting rusty. Regardless, just because his principle of not believing in no-win was introduced in this movie, it seems that all his Genesis Trilogy mistakes were magically conflated with this principle despite him presumably having it during his entire successful TOS series.

The principle may have been articulated int TWOK, but it was certainly apparent in his behaviour in TOS.

Not that I really know what this has to do with anything anymore...

 

[Yistaan]

The principle may have been articulated int TWOK, but it was certainly apparent in his behaviour in TOS.

Not that I really know what this has to do with anything anymore...

The idea is that if pike also didn't believe in a no win situation, he'd be fighting it for the next 10 years, yet nothing in the episodes ending indicates it. to the point mendez would say "that accident chris kept warning us of happened despite all our efforts to prevent it"

 

[Longinus]

The idea is that if pike also didn't believe in a no win situation, he'd be fighting it for the next 10 years, yet nothing in the episodes ending indicates it. to the point mendez would say "that accident chris kept warning us of happened despite all our efforts to prevent it"

Well, I can easily believe that Pike is more fatalist than Kirk. But we really don't know what happen in these eight years between this episode and the accident. That Pike immediately didn't take any action doesn't mean he eventually doesn't. I can also believe that in this era any time travel related shenanigans are not common knowledge and even if some people might eventually know about these events, not everybody would.

 

[Photoman15]

Can we get a Star Trek series as reimagined by Dr. Suess now please!!

David Gerrold just won the lawsuit that Dr. Suess's estate filed against him for the Star Trek/Suess mashup book he wrote.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm glad DSC has people talking and debating about Star Trek. That's fun to see. It may be polarizing, and people have varied reactions to it...but at least it's not frigging unremarkable.

Same here. No matter how much I agree or disagree or just flat out don't understand this Trek has produced more interesting debate that I have seen in a while, and that includes the Kelvin films. Personally, I think it shows a level of personal involvement even for those who don't like DSC.

 

[Ovation]

Here's what we know--Pike saw "a" future where horrible tragedy awaits, is told that future is immutable if he takes the crystal in the present, chooses to take the crystal (after weighing his horrific fate vs. inaction). That's what we know. That, and roughly a decade on, Pike suffers a horrible tragedy that is nearly identical, if not entirely, to what he saw a decade earlier on Boreth.

What we don't know? Quite a bit. Here are some possible scenarios for the intervening decade.

Pike keeps it to himself the entire time, does nothing to avert the event. Possible, but seems incompatible with his overall character.

Pike keeps it to himself, does all he can to avert the event, fails. Much more likely outcome--consistent with his character and core values, yet also in keeping with what we (aware of the events post tragedy) know.

Pike tells Starfleet, does all he can to avert the event, fails. Not much different than previous option, in the end.

Is the actual tragedy the one Pike witnessed or is it just something very similar, after Pike has tirelessly worked to prevent such tragedies? We don't know. We cannot know based on available evidence.

Also, we see him in the immediate aftermath of the "vision of the future". How do we know the knowledge doesn't fade after a few days? Ah, but he could have immediately recorded his experience--just in case. Perhaps...if he was a machine. Just coming to grips with what he saw might reasonably delay him from making detailed notes long enough to have those details slip away unexpectedly.


Of course, none of this occurred to me during the scene--I was too busy admiring the craft of the scene as acted to pause the show and begin dissecting it for logical flaws. It's entertainment, not a logic puzzle.

 

[Alan Roi]

The idea is that if pike also didn't believe in a no win situation, he'd be fighting it for the next 10 years, yet nothing in the episodes ending indicates it. to the point mendez would say "that accident chris kept warning us of happened despite all our efforts to prevent it"

I think one should also keep in mind that Mendez was a Talosian illusion anyway.

 

[Vger23]

Same here. No matter how much I agree or disagree or just flat out don't understand this Trek has produced more interesting debate that I have seen in a while, and that includes the Kelvin films. Personally, I think it shows a level of personal involvement even for those who don't like DSC.

Exactly...I see people who don't necessarily like the direction of the show or the narrative choices made...but at least there's enough going on to cause debate, discussion, passion and controversy.

I can't say you saw that a lot in some previous iterations.

I'll take "risky Star Trek with shaky results" over "safe Star Trek with steady results" ANY DAY at this stage of the franchise's lifecycle.

 

[fireproof78]

I'll take "risky Star Trek with shaky results" over "safe Star Trek with steady results" ANY DAY at this stage of the franchise's lifecycle.

I'll take this period.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think one should also keep in mind that Mendez was a Talosian illusion anyway.

At what point does he become an illusion?
Is Piper an illusion too?

 

[Vger23]

At what point does he become an illusion?
Is Piper an illusion too?

I think the Talosians tell Kirk that his presence in the shuttle and on the Enterprise was an illusion.

Of course, none of this occurred to me during the scene--I was too busy admiring the craft of the scene as acted to pause the show and begin dissecting it for logical flaws. It's entertainment, not a logic puzzle.

Are you new around here?

 

[Lord Garth]

Pike doesn't know when the accident will happen. Just that it will. He continues on anyway.

We don't know when we'll die. Just that we will. We continue on anyway.

 

[GNDN18]

I think the Talosians tell Kirk that his presence in the shuttle and on the Enterprise was an illusion.

That what the Magistrate said. If, though, Mendez (and Piper, for that matter), were illusions from the beginning, it would explain why Mendez thought Kirk and Pike were the same age … because to the Talosians, their “Pike” was from thirteen years ago … and never aged!

 

[Yistaan]

That what the Magistrate said. If, though, Mendez (and Piper, for that matter), were illusions from the beginning, it would explain why Mendez thought Kirk and Pike were the same age … because to the Talosians, their “Pike” was from thirteen years ago … and never aged!

That doesn't work as Cage Pike is now around 52 years old due to a line about Pike and Georgiou going to the academy together. Kirk was 34 in the Menagerie

 

[DaveyNY]

David Gerrold just won the lawsuit that Dr. Suess's estate filed against him for the Star Trek/Suess mashup book he wrote.

That actually happened back in the second week of march.

just sayin'

 

[Alessandro Piazza]

That doesn't work as Cage Pike is now around 52 years old due to a line about Pike and Georgiou going to the academy together. Kirk was 34 in the Menagerie

I think I saw elsewhere that while that statement could have caused confusion, Pike and Georgiou attending the Academy at the same time does not necessarily mean they were the same age or in the same year together.

 

[Yistaan]

I think I saw elsewhere that while that statement could have caused confusion, Pike and Georgiou attending the Academy at the same time does not necessarily mean they were the same age or in the same year together.

Georgiou academy years were onscreen too. Maybe it would work if pike were a child prodigy, but then the line was about alcohol drinking... They didn't really leave wiggle room at all.