Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Yistaan]

Not at all. Captain Pike is behaving like a true hero! "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one" and all that. His future terrified him as it was very much worse than death. Sorry, but your statement strikes me as nonsensical.

To me it strikes me as a man who has accepted this as his fate, that it will come about because of the man that he is, not trying to be something he is not.

To put it bluntly, he sees a possible consequence and deems it acceptable and will not change. Stubborn, perhaps, but very human.

I don't think my statement is nonsensical at all. But I do see where you're coming from, and maybe my comparing Pike to Data was a bit much. You're talking about the enlightened future humans who don't even need money and not the people I'm seeing every day in the real world (who would do everything possible to prevent such an accident if they were in Pike's position). There's a reason DS9 developed the greedy, ruthless Ferengi race--they needed people the audience could relate to, because the Pike-style selfless, completely heroic Starfleet (TM) icons just weren't relatable to many people anymore.

And the same is going on here with the Pike situation. I as a 21st century human being don't find what he did relatable. I find Quark more relatable in this regard. I'm glad you find him relatable, but I don't. And my opinion is just as valid as others'.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Perhaps it is simply like knowing the position of an electron. You can either know its path or its location, but not both. To observe one is to change the other.

Actually, not true. A night in the desert with a special mushroom and some Mountain Dew and you can know both an electron's path and it's location. You just may not be able to remember one or either the next day.

 

[Longinus]

I don't mind it being predestined. It indeed might be that the knowledge of these events, and the precautions Pike takes based on this knowledge in some fucked up way actually lead to him being injured. What is however is weird that whether Pike takes the crystal or not would have any bearing on this. I am really not willing to accept that the crystals would have destiny locking properties like that. But maybe it is the events that unfold as consequence of taking the crystal which lead to the future where Pike gets injured, not really any magical power that the crystal has?

 

[Yistaan]

I don't mind it being predestined. It indeed might be that the knowledge of these events, and the precautions Pike takes based on this knowledge in some fucked up way actually lead to him being injured. What is however is weird that whether Pike takes the crystal or not would have any bearing on this. I am really not willing to accept that the crystals would have destiny locking properties like that. But maybe it is the events that unfold as consequence of taking the crystal which lead to the future where Pike gets injured, not really any magical power that the crystal has?

Considering the Menagerie said Pike was injured in an inspection tour and said nothing about a training exercise, this is my take as well. His attempt to avert the training exercise injury just causes the same injury via inspection tour instead.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I don't think my statement is nonsensical at all.

It struck me as "nonsensical" simply because we actually see Pike's strong emotional response to his vision yet your claim within your post denied that objective reality.

You're talking about the enlightened future humans who don't even need money and not the people I'm seeing every day in the real world (who would do everything possible to prevent such an accident if they were in Pike's position).

I don't know. I'm sure there are many first responders or military folk who would find Captain Pike relatable. Many undertake "suicide missions" for the benefit of those who will never be aware of their sacrifice. I can only be saddened by your declaration of not knowing or being able to relate to anyone of heroic and noble character.

 

[drt]

But maybe it is the events that unfold as consequence of taking the crystal which lead to the future where Pike gets injured, not really any magical power that the crystal has?

This makes sense. He sees a future that seems to be free of the immediate galaxy-threatening problem of Control, and assumes that the current plan to defeat Control is contingent on possession of a time crystal.

 

[Yistaan]

It struck me as "nonsensical" simply because we actually see Pike's strong emotional response to his vision yet your claim within your post denied that objective reality.



I don't know. I'm sure there are many first responders or military folk who would find Captain Pike relatable. Many undertake "suicide missions" for the benefit of those who will never be aware of their sacrifice. I can only be saddened by your declaration of not knowing or being able to relate to anyone of heroic and noble character.

Having had a grandfather who was a veteran, I see that side. But I also saw the bitterness and hurt afterwards too. And the feeling when you're damaged and alone, it was all for nothing. I'll never forget my grandparents breaking down and crying, or them telling me not to make the mistakes they made.

A cool (admittedly very cool) sci-fi show and some fandom viewpoints aren't going to change that.

It's a bit much to decree someone as not relating to selflessness when I already try to be selfless but still see the need to protect myself.

I have a permanent injury from acting selflessly (long story), so I think I would have more insight on these matters than someone who presumably suffers no such permanent injury (unless I'm told otherwise in which case I stand corrected).

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Having had a grandfather who was a veteran, I see that side. But I also saw the bitterness and hurt afterwards too. And the feeling when you're damaged and alone, it was all for nothing. I'll never forget my grandparents breaking down and crying, or them telling me not to make the mistakes they made.

Which, if true, has nothing to do with the point at hand. You proclaimed Pike's dedication to duty was unrelatable to you. That, to me, is pitiable, and I do.

 

[Yistaan]

Which, if true, has nothing to do with the point at hand. You proclaimed Pike's dedication to duty was unrelatable to you. That, to me, is pitiable, and I do.

Well, having one's selfless actions leading to permanent incurable injury changes you (it changed me). It's easy to judge when your selfless actions do not cost you permanent harm.

It's funny hearing about "relatability" from people who don't actually think what it's like every day for the rest of your life to live with permanent suffering (i.e. relate to it themselves with empathy even if they don't endure it). And then judge people for not eagerly signing up for that.

This is exactly why being selfless is so hard. Your selfless actions lead to permanent injury, your perspective changes, and then people who don't even know what you sacrificed rush to judge you.

I'm not even sure how to start about being judged pitiable for not relating to a fictional character and fictional sacrifices while said post makes no attempt to relate or ask about the lifelong real-life permanent injury prompted by a selfless real-life incident from an actual real-life poster (and the one being judged "pitiable").

 

[Doc Mugatu]

It's a bit much to decree someone as not relating to selflessness when I already try to be selfless but still see the need to protect myself.

Honestly, and I could be wrong, you are coming across as very disingenuous to me. I am only going by what you said. You said initially claimed you found Pike's response to his vision as unemotional and unrelatable (by virtue that you don't see his nobility reflected in those around you).

I have a permanent injury from acting selflessly (long story),

Maybe you do. Maybe you don't.

I am not even sure your definition of "selflessly" and mine are the same or even compatible.

so I think I would have more insight on these matters than someone who presumably suffers no such permanent injury ...

You presume much and not for good cause.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Well, having one's selfless actions leading to permanent incurable injury changes you (it changed me). It's easy to judge when your selfless actions do not cost you permanent harm ...

Now, by my estimation, you've just gone off the rails. This interaction is over.

Good day.

I said, "GOOD DAY!"

 

[Yistaan]

@Doc Mugatu , have a nice day.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm glad you find him relatable, but I don't. And my opinion is just as valid as others'.

No one would deny that. For me, having had inserted myself in a dangerous situation to protect and preserve others, I can fully relate to Pike. But, I appreciate that is not everyone else's experience.

ETA: I should add that not everyone would choose the same as I.

 

[Yistaan]

No one would deny that. For me, having had inserted myself in a dangerous situation to protect and preserve others, I can fully relate to Pike. But, I appreciate that is not everyone else's experience.

Thanks for the answer. I'm glad you were able to help others.

Life is hard. Everyone is different. My own injury perhaps is still too recent for me to see clearly (although a decade probably strictly speaking isn't recent). Maybe as I get older, even if I'm never treated (doctors told me there's nowhere close to a cure for my ear injury), I can start coming to peace with the choices I've made and feel more relatability to someone like Pike again.

For what it's worth, think of the depiction of Pike in Disc. He's still screaming in anguish in the wheelchair. In Menagerie, he seems peaceful, even falling asleep during Spock's court martial. I don't think the screaming Pike could relate to his choice and probably regrets it, but it's possible after some time the peaceful Menagerie Pike does remember and understand why he made the choices he did.

 

[fireproof78]

Life is hard. Everyone is different. My own injury perhaps is still too recent for me to see clearly (although a decade probably strictly speaking isn't recent). Maybe as I get older, even if I'm never treated (doctors told me there's nowhere close to a cure for my ear injury), I can start coming to peace with the choices I've made and feel more relatability to someone like Pike again.

Time is a bit relative, and any sort of traumatic experience is going to make that even harder. I can't even imagine how that would impact me. And, I do recall the ear injury now, and apologize if I came across as insensitive.

For what it's worth, think of the depiction of Pike in Disc. He's still screaming in anguish in the wheelchair. In Menagerie, he seems peaceful, even falling asleep during Spock's court martial. I don't think the screaming Pike could relate to his choice and probably regrets it, but it's possible after some time the peaceful Menagerie Pike does remember and understand why he made the choices he did.

For what its worth, Pike never struck me as peaceful in the Menagerie. Now, that was also from a limited perspective, but knowing what I know now of chronic pain and injuries I can say that Pike will probably question himself from that day forward. However, to attempt to change it would also be a rejection to his own values and beliefs.

Some may not be able to relate. Maybe even Pike couldn't relate at times. I know there are times for me when I'm in the deep dark of depression that I cannot even want to enjoy life. Pike probably goes between what you and I feel, and everything in between.

 

[Yistaan]

For what its worth, Pike never struck me as peaceful in the Menagerie. Now, that was also from a limited perspective, but knowing what I know now of chronic pain and injuries I can say that Pike will probably question himself from that day forward. However, to attempt to change it would also be a rejection to his own values and beliefs.

It depends on whether Pike was in severe continuing pain in Menagerie or not, something I'm not sure canon has ruled on. Gruesome screaming scenes in Disco aside (which were immediately post-accident going by the facemelt), I didn't see anything in Menagerie indicating he was.

Pike wasn't peaceful because he knew Spock was gleefully heading to the death penalty with his stunts. Once the course was set to Talos however, I got the impression he was like OK, whatever, there's not much I can do now. Pike did his part and the rest was no longer up to him.

 

[plynch]

That moment was one of several inspiring moments to me in DSC.

I like art that makes me want to be better. I mean the fate of the galaxy is stake. I hope I would make the same choice.

I hope I would make that choice for a host of lesser bu t still important things if the occasion arose.

 

[Kemaiku]

Anson is slowly tweeting out the makeup process for future Pike day by day, and it's looking like a pretty lengthy thing for a few seconds onscreen, a lot of that was practical...

 

[Yistaan]

Anson is slowly tweeting out the makeup process for future Pike day by day, and it's looking like a pretty lengthy thing for a few seconds onscreen, a lot of that was practical...

Anson's tweets also seem to indicate the keeper's name is indeed Tenavik, and not T'Navik as some suggested.

It's hard to figure out how to spell Klingon names.

 

[Longinus]

Anson's tweets also seem to indicate the keeper's name is indeed Tenavik, and not T'Navik as some suggested.

It's hard to figure out how to spell Klingon names.

It is just a transliteration anyway.