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Okey-dokey.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
@Lakenheath 72 -- The word you're looking for is "spouse".
You all have icky thoughts and your behavior disgusts me. Now help me get into this leather outfit before I begin streaming the next episode.
They are husbands. Or spouses. Not one of them is the wife.
It's insulting to prescribe hetero-normative gender stereotypes onto a gay relationship. I hate when a straight person asks, "which one of you is the woman."
Indeed, that's what we're asking for - I don't think anyone is arguing that the characters are not allowed to have moral dilemmas, make mistakes, struggle with the sacrifices required of them, or anything else. The "perfect" humans of Gene's (updated) vision of the mid 80s are not only unrealistic, they're boring. But there's a long way from that to "officially sanctioned genocide squad". While Star Trek was only briefly about perfect humans, it was about better humans and a bright future for humanity - even in TOS. S31 means we are worse, not better, by the 23rdC.
Check the thread again; several people are saying exactly this.
I feel the same way about mosquitoes as Kirk did about Klingons at the start of The Undiscovered Country. LET THEM DIE.
Section 31 is like that guy on "Money." They were certainly in the right. That Founder was cruisin' for a bruisn'.
Well, I liked seeing Culber being reunited with his spouse Stamets.
I am, yes. I don't think there's a point in prevaricating on the what is to me a minor matter in trek. Starfleet does odd secret unacceptable things that are unacceptable all the time. The main issue of complaint I ever had about Sec.31 was its seeming non-accountability. But at least in the 23rd century that doesn't seem to be a problem. Perhaps much later it splintered and broke into a rogue agency that answered to no one, and kept plausible deniability relationship with the Federation.
Section 31 reminds me a bit of the CIA assassination plots against Fidel Castro in the 1960s. Few people would defend Fidel Castro as a paragon of virtue or a role model of humanitarian governance and progressive thinking but the CIA's covert and very dirty scheming to kill the man exposed just how dark and merciless the intelligence community in the world's greatest and most powerful democracy could be even at the height of American postwar prestige and global influence.
The awful things plotted and even executed in the name of American democracy and the morality of the Western world just to undermine a totalitarian regime 90 miles from our shores speak volumes for how foreboding and amoral many in our own government and its covert organizations act in the purported name of defending our democratic values and the dignity of free peoples everywhere. The CIA operatives scheming to kill Castro also believed they were doing the right thing and didn't really care with which criminal elements in the underworld they joined forces to try to accomplish their ultimate goal. It was all about getting done what they saw as needing to be done, to Hell with the consequences to our reputation and the values we claim to uphold in the defense of liberty.
The awful things plotted and even executed in the name of American democracy and the morality of the Western world just to undermine a totalitarian regime 90 miles from our shores speak volumes for how foreboding and amoral many in our own government and its covert organizations act in the purported name of defending our democratic values and the dignity of free peoples everywhere. The CIA operatives scheming to kill Castro also believed they were doing the right thing and didn't really care with which criminal elements in the underworld they joined forces to try to accomplish their ultimate goal. It was all about getting done what they saw as needing to be done, to Hell with the consequences to our reputation and the values we claim to uphold in the defense of liberty.
Sure. It is really unfortunate that Disco character assassinated Sarek that way.
Then, who provided Section 31 with the technology and information they needed for their missions in the 24th century? Rogue groups, like the military units who fought the Japanese in the Southeast Asian theatre, still needed a more powerful group backing them up. Rogue groups who do not have this do not last long.
The CIA also acted in the interests of powerful business interests, as what happened in Iran in the 1950s when they, working with the British, successfully overthrew the government.
The CIA also acted in the interests of powerful business interests, as what happened in Iran in the 1950s when they, working with the British, successfully overthrew the government.
Iran. Guatemala. Any nation where American fruit growers, oil companies, sugar plantation owners and Mafia hotels and casinos operated and made huge profits that got funneled back to our own shores.
Well quite; we today aren't who we say we are, we just pretend to be for the cameras. We champion values we clearly don't believe in because we abandon them in times of real or imagined crisis. s31's existence and official sanction says that by the time of Star Trek we're not only still compromising our core ethics in that way, we have dialed it up to eleven - as though the CIA had deployed smallpox in Russia.
Sarek was always kind of a douche, and Vulcans in general are prone to logic over ethics, so it wasn't too much of a stretch for me to have him play the old Badmiral role.
It's funny what different people take from watching Trek - to me the brighter future for humanity not being built on lies is anything but a minor matter. I don't care how many meters the Enterprise is, or if they retcon holodecks on board the Phoenix - this is my hill to die on
That description sounds closer to a couple of half assed episodes of Wonder Woman, Judgement from Outer Space and Mind Stealers from Outer Space. There, the aliens did plan to nuke the Earth out of existence exactly as described. They did an 'Oh look, the natives discovered fire, we should nuke them before they can discover boats.' Klaatu was just giving the Earth the facts of going out into space armed for war. What they did on earth was their own business but bring war into space and Gort and Co. will be there. He didn't claim superiority. He said it wasn't a perfect system but his people, essentially, gave everything about war over to the robots. It's MAD in space but I would call his folks fools that set up a devil's bargain and was just giving the earth the facts of what was out there, good or ill.
KLAATU
I come to you as a last resort -- and I confess that my patience is wearing thin.
Must I take drastic action in order to get a hearing?
BARNHARDT
What -- what sort of action do you mean?
KLAATU
Violent action -- since that seems to be the only thing you people understand.
Leveling the island of Manhattan, perhaps -- or dropping the Rock of Gibraltar into the sea.
...
BARNHARDT
One thing, Mr. Klaatu.
Suppose this group should reject your proposals.
What is the alternative?
KLAATU
I'm afraid you have no alternative.
In such, a case the planet Earth would have to be-- (he looks for the right word) --eliminated.
http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/the_day_the_earth_stood_still.html
Everybody has been shooting at him from the get go and no one will listen at all. This option is a last resort. He takes that tack because as said right there, humans seem to understand no other language than violence.
Again, he never claimed it was a perfect system or that they were better people. Besides, they don't even have control of the robots so far as their patrol duties go. He warns Earth because his people have no control to stop the robots should Earth bring warcraft into space.
KLAATU'S VOICE
(over scene)
At the first sign of violence they
act automatically against the
aggressor. And the penalty for
provoking their action is too terrible
to risk.
CLOSE SHOT - KLAATU
KLAATU
The result is that we live in peace,
without arms or armies, secure in
the knowledge that we are free from
aggression and war -- free to pursue
more profitable enterprises.
(after a pause)
We do not pretend to have achieved
perfection -- but we do have a system --
and it works.
(with straightforward
candor)
I came here to give you the facts.
It is no concern of ours how you run
your own planet -- but if you threaten
to extend your violence, this Earth
of yours will be reduced to a burned-
out cinder.
I'm just glad that the necromicon was burried in sumeria when these clowns were puffing out their chests about galactic peace.
What they need to worry about is what the damned robots consider violence. Suppose someone sneaks a geranium though customs or a food shipment happens to have some fungus that screws up a planet's ecosystem. Do the robots call that aggression and blow someone up? Earth nuked due to incidental kudzu infestation on Alpha Jackoff, not cool.
On the other hand, if the robots take an attitude of what happens on a planet stays there and it's their own business like Klatuu said in the movie, what happens on Beta Alamo. A lot of humans have lived there for a few generations and decide they can do a better job than the aboriginals and do a conquer the world thing. Their planet, just like Texas. Do the robots ignore it because it's planetary natives fighting each other?
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