Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[Noname Given]

Section 31 is officially part of Starfleet Intelligence.

I like see section 31 has communicators a century more advanced

Not really. Go rewatch TOS S3 - "The Tholian Web" and pay attention to how they use their EVA Suit Communicators.

They're not more advanced per se, they are just ahead 'style-wise'.

lol

^^^
Guess he's not a fan of STIII:TSfS as Spock's ressurection there in the end is honestly even more ludicrous.

 

[Amaris]

She displays a certain spirit of lethe

There are always outliers. But how many trillions does one allow to die when for the sake of a promissing handful? Naturally if finding and saving those few to somehow cultivate something better from the annihilation of the bulk could be done, that would be more a question of supererogation.

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, as long as those many are ‘lesser than’ is a horrible way to moralize genocide in the name of “good.”

 

[Tuskin38]

This is fiction. If you write fiction in such a way that it seems to endorse genocide as a valid choice, then something has gone wrong. (Unless you're writing absurd black comedy.) The very fact that so many people seem to think that S31 has a point is completely terrifying and utter perversion of the values Star Trek should uphold.

I don't think anyone here has said Section 31 was in the right.

Too little, too late. She approved genocide.

So are Picard and the Federation Council evil too?

 

[USS Triumphant]

Section 31 has had about 100 years of access to the stuff that was left in Crewman Daniels' quarters aboard the NX-01 - which we know canonically included at least *some* information up into the late 24th century, and which we can reasonably assume included a lot more than what we saw both in scope and even further into the future. Possibly going as far as Daniels' own time.

Point being, it shouldn't be surprising that they've managed to work out a few futuristic features for their ships and equipment.

That and some awesome special effects work aside, this was the stupidest episode of Star Trek in the entire franchise - and yes, I'm including "Spock's Brain" and "Threshold". Between Stamets suddenly having magic Rapunzel tears, spore cocoons that can recreate people from their DNA and somehow keep their memories and individuality intact, there being no *valid* reason for Georgiou to be on Spock's ship, and the jarring jumps in "plot development" when suddenly Ash is in Section 31 and again when suddenly Admiral Cornwall is there... well, let's just say that while I'm in no way a Discovery hater, and I'm also not generally one to contrast it with "The Orville", I was VERY glad that we had a good episode of that latter show waiting to cleanse my mental Trek-fan palette with after watching this nonsense.

Here's hoping next week makes a strong move back toward quality Trek and quality television, generally.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Too little, too late. She approved genocide.

She has the right to change her mind.

And it’s not “too little, too late” - on the contrary, it’s just in time.

Again: Cornwell listened to reason. She realized she was wrong. She didn’t commit genocide, she averted it. And she deserves recognition for that.

 

[Longinus]

Again: Cornwell listened to reason. She realized she was wrong. She deserves recognition for that.

Indeed. Having to serve only a half time of her penal colony sentence for ordering a genocide seems like an appropriate recognition for the situation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You didn’t answer the question re: Picard. Is HE evil for initially approving the plan to eradicate the Borg (via Hugh), even though he eventually changed his mind?

How can you say that people should be damned for actions that never occurred, and which they themselves successfully averted?

Here’s a thought: Somebody cuts you off in traffic. You get so mad that you want to kill them. Yet you never actually do. Are YOU evil just for having that fleeting thought? By the logic you have just shown, you are.

 

[marlboro]

 

[Longinus]

You didn’t answer the question re: Picard. Is HE evil for initially approving the plan to eradicate the Borg (via Hugh), even though he eventually changed his mind?

The situation was somewhat different due the nature of the Borg and it not initially being quite clear what would be the results of the virus. But most importantly Picard never gave the order.

How can you say that people should be damned for actions that never occurred, and which they themselves successfully averted?

She was an officer who ordered a genocide. She hid the information from the officers who were to carry out that order, and installed an outsider and tyrant in command of the mission. Merely by combined happenstance of the Disco crew figuring out the plan and refusing to comply was the genocide averted. So yes, she absolutely should be held accountable for giving those orders. If I hire someone to kill my neighbour, but for some reason the assassin fails in their task and I later express remorse for ordering that assassination, I sure as hell would still be held accountable!

 

[Midquest]

Guess he's not a fan of STIII:TSfS as Spock's ressurection there in the end is honestly even more ludicrous.

This is funny. He should watch the show, which very much did foreshadow what happened in 2x05, and first did so back in season 1. Oh dear!

 

[Tuskin38]

She was an officer who ordered a genocide. She hid the information from the officers who were to carry out that order, and installed an outsider and tyrant in command of the mission. Merely by combined happenstance of the Disco crew figuring out the plan and refusing to comply was the genocide averted. So yes, she absolutely should be held accountable for giving those orders. If I hire someone to kill my neighbour, but for some reason the assassin fails in their task and I later express remorse for ordering that assassination, I sure as hell would still be held accountable!

I agree 100%, she should be accountable. She must have people in high places.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Guess he's not a fan of STIII:TSfS as Spock's ressurection there in the end is honestly even more ludicrous.

I just read that as "even spore ludicrous"...

 

[XCV330]

Indeed. Having to serve only a half time of her penal colony sentence for ordering a genocide seems like an appropriate recognition for the situation.

I believe you are misquoting me in your reply.

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, as long as those many are ‘lesser than’ is a horrible way to moralize genocide in the name of “good.”

Where did I say that?

 

[Amaris]

Where did I say that?

Here:

There are always outliers. But how many trillions does one allow to die when for the sake of a promissing handful? Naturally if finding and saving those few to somehow cultivate something better from the annihilation of the bulk could be done, that would be more a question of supererogation.

 

[donners22]

lol

This from the same person who gave What You Leave Behind - featuring our half-Prophet hero battling a Wraith-possessed villain bearing a magic book which summons flames and blinds readers - 10/10.

I guess Disco should just say "Prophets did it", and all would be well.

The hyperbole in reviews is crazy. I saw one reviewer, who I used to follow, compare Calypso to The Alternative Factor in quality.

 

[DEWLine]

And Sarek was right there for the initial Qo'noS decision. Representing civilian oversight. Like Cornwell, he too was initially talked into it.

Complicit.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

For myself, I have learned not to bother myself with the science being wrong. Science fiction is another step in the evolution of imaginative storytelling, in the larger genre of myths and legends with a setting in the fantastical.

I liked the exploration of the relationships in this episode. I am thrilled that Culber is back with his husband/wife.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I am thrilled that Culber is back with his husband/wife.

His what?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

She has the right to change her mind.

And it’s not “too little, too late” - on the contrary, it’s just in time.

Again: Cornwell listened to reason. She realized she was wrong. She didn’t commit genocide, she averted it. And she deserves recognition for that.

First off, you don't get credit for changing your mind on committing genocide. That's what you're supposed to do. Also, it wasn't some stray thought that she immediately dismissed, they went through with planting the bombs.

Second, "averted" implies that she prevented someone else's attempt to commit genocide, not just that she paused her own. You're treating it like she heroically stopped an atrocity from happening, not that she was actively behind that attempted attrocity.

Third, Starfleet Command didn't totally change their mind, they just passed the buck to L'Rell, and let her hold the Klingon Empire hostage in order to undertake a coup and put herself in power. And if they had called her bluff, she had the option of still going through with it.

Fourth, Cornwell's right back with "the ends justify the means" bullshit in this episode, so clearly she didn't learn a damn thing from her aborted genocide or Michael's big speech about reaffirming Starfleet's values.

Fifth, go plant a nuke in Washington DC and then say "psych!" and see how well that works out for you with the FBI, with or without using the nuke to blackmail a favorable leader into total control of the government.

 

[XCV330]

Here:

In this case the needs of the many being the collective survival and thriving of galactic civilizations vs a the minor few outliers of some dangerous species that has willfully thrown itself in the recycle bin of history, then yes. It's not necessarily the sort of thing anyone would thrill to be a part of, but I think in this fictional context Section 31 was completely justified in attempting genocide on the Dominion and would have been right to do so against the Borg.

Someone, even in near perfect societies, must be able to protect those near perfect societies by making the penalty for threatening them so unthinkable that no one would ever consider it once they've seen the results. How many world wars have we had since Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Klaatu seemed capable of explaining it in a less complicated way, apparently in Day The Earth Stood Still