Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x04 - "An Obol for Charon"

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

But what if all Saru communicates to the Kelpiens is the truth he learned about the vahar'ai?

He discovered that knowledge himself, as a Kelpien, not through Star Fleet or Federation knowledge. He should be free to share that knowledge with other Kelpiens without violating General Order One/The Prime Directive.

As long as he keeps what he says limited to that, then I see no problem with his return -- although he would need a cover story for where he's been.

But as a Federation citizen and as a Starfleet Officer, he would be bound by the law as such, not as a Kelpien. While it could be fudged that rescuing him from his planet and allowing him refugee status was circumventing the Prime Directive, allowing a Starfleet officer to return and change that planet would be a direct violation.

The Georgiou who came to rescue Saru was the prime universe version. That was way back when she was a Lieutenant.

I phrased this awkwardly, I meant that the Prime Georgiou would be a truly mirrored version of Mirror Georgiou in that the Emporer would be fine in single handedly destroying a whole planet for her cause, whereas Prime Georgiou (or "Mirror Emporer") might pick up a single being and fight for 'the long con' in raising Saru with Starfleet ideals of peace and equality, in hopes that he might use his freedom to go and start a revolution later on, whether it be legal or not.

 

[Rahul]

This is not how I remember how and why Starfleet ended up at Bajor. There were lots of reasons why the Cardassians abandoned Bajor, and I think a major one was moreso that Bajor was becoming a subject planet of diminishing returns; the resistance was out of hand and the occupation's grasp was waning, combined with the low moral of losing so many soliders to a 'primitive' planet, as well as the natural resources being not as plentiful after 50 years of occupation where the Federation did nothing. As far as we know, the occupation began before the Federation had real dealings with the Cardassians. The war between the Federation and the Cardassians appear to have been border skirmishes and not a crusade against Bajoran slavery. It was only after the Cardassians left that the Bajorans requested the aid of the Federation, which is perfectly okay with them; Bajor was not prewarp and directly requested aid; the Prime Directive does not apply. Bajorans as a subject species of the Cardassian Empire and the unrest of being so is an internal affair of the Cardassian Empire, and thus the Prime Directive did apply.

^^^^
IDK if I'd characterize it as 'political pressure from the Federation' per se as it was part of the Federation/Cardassian p[eace treaty of teh Feds own direct war with the Cardassians (and in all the years of TNG and Ds9, while the end of said war was chronicled; the reason for the start of it never was n- and supposedly, it went on as far back as Picard's command of the Stargazer, through the first 3 Seasons of TNG - even though that fact was NEVER mentioned until TNG's 4th season.

But my point? The Bajor System and DS9 were ceded to the Federation in the same way A LOT of former Federation territory (with established Federation Colonies that the Feds TRIED like hell to get their citizens to move or move from) was ceded to the Cardassians. (And that left A LOT of disgruntled former Fed citizens to form the Maquis).

So again, I don;'t think you can say the Federation exerted any more 'political pressure' then the Cardassians did towards the Federation to get the Territorial concessions it received as part of the treaty.
^^^
The treaty itself was to end a direct war between the Federation and the Cardassian Empire. The Federation didn't appear to be lobbying for or against getting the Bajor system itself no longer being classified as being in Cardassian territory per se - it was part of a vast amount of territory that changed hands on BOTH SIDES.

Yes, the Bajorians IMMEDIATELY applied for Federation membership once their star system was no longer classed as being in Cardassian space; but again, I don't see any evidence that the Federation specifically cared if Bajor was included or not.

Bajor was invaded by Cardassia 60 years (and that's in on screen dialogue) prior to the start of the DS9 series. Unless the Federation/Cardassian war started and ran that long, I seriously doubt the plight of the Bajorians weighed very heavily on the minds of Federation diplomats from that time, until the time the Federation/Cardassian War started,

To be quite honest: It's a long time ago.
But even Memory-Alpha says political pressure from the Federation was at least one of the reasons for the Cardassians leaving Bajor:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Occupation_of_Bajor

And I remember something similar from Picard somewhere (probably a Ro Laren episode), where he specifically talks about political pressure.

Now I fully aknowledge this: This was most likely not the only reason. All of that was way after the Federation-Cardassian war. And that Cardassia hasn't occupied other planets since then. And that it was Cardassias civil gouvernement that decided to stop the occupation, not the military leadership. So it was probably a number of reasons, diminishing returns and a change in leadership included.

But one thing is pretty clear: The Federations did put political pressure on to end the occupation! Even if it wasn't the ultimate reason for the success - they tried. the Prime directive didn't apply here, all of this was really "Realpolitik" (which DS9 was really good at) - wanting to help make the situation better, but at the same time not increase tensions with the Cardis too much.

That's why it's su curious tha Ba'Ul / Kelpian - relationship is under the "prime directive". I don't know why at this point, maybe even the writers haven't figured the situation completely out at shis point - but it looks to be an interesting, slightly more complex situation, and I#m always looking forward to such.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

But as a Federation citizen and as a Starfleet Officer, he would be bound by the law as such, not as a Kelpien. While it could be fudged that rescuing him from his planet and allowing him refugee status was circumventing the Prime Directive, allowing a Starfleet officer to return and change that planet would be a direct violation.

I would think it's the knowledge and information itself that would (or wouldn't) be allowed to be relayed to a pre-warp society, not the person who provides the information.

But besides that, I think it could be argued that Saru himself -- if he was never taken away from Kaminar -- might have figured out the truth of vahar'ai himself, and would have spread the word to his people. After all, he was a free thinker and a genius on his own planet prior to being taken away. If he had stayed, learned the truth, and spread that truth to his people, then that would have then been the natural development of Kaminar.

If that were the case, then it could be said that Georgiou taking him away is what would damage the natural development of his world, unless he would be allowed to tell his people what he would have told them if he didn't leave with Georgiou.

They might be denying the Kelpien's natural development by NOT allowing Saru to share what he has learned about vahar'ai (although that's about all he could share). That seems unfair if he can't tell them simply because he happened to be a Star Fleet officer at the time he figured it out.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

I would think it's the knowledge and information itself that would (or wouldn't) be allowed to be relayed to a pre-warp society, not the person who provides the information.

I agree it is the knowledge and information itself, but the person that relays that information extralegally would still be held accountable. You were saying that he should be able to go back as a Kelpien to help his fellow Kelpiens, but he's not just a Kelpien anymore; he is a Federation citizen and represents Starfleet, bound by their laws; that was part of the deal.

It could be argued that Saru himself -- if he was never taken away from Kaminar -- might have figured out the truth of vahar'ai himself, and would have spread the word to his people. After all, he was a free thinker and a genius on his own planet prior to being taken away. If he had stayed, learned the truth, and spread that truth to his people, then that would have then been the natural development of Kaminar.

If that were the case, then it could be said that Georgiou taking him away is what would damage the natural development of his world, unless he would be allowed to tell his people what he would have told them if he didn't leave with Georgiou.

But there really isn't any way to prove or disprove that supposition, and I don't think the council would rule in favor of that big of a what if. The situation is that they have a refugee Kelpien from a pre-warp civilization. Whatever action Starfleet decides to take would mitigate any contamination based on the Prime Directive rules, and sending him back would do anything but mitigate. Let's say someone argues for that, the next person is just going to say, 'But what if allowing Saru return to his people leads to a revolution and then a big ass genocide, you wanna be responsible for that?'

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

he's not just a Kelpien anymore; he is a Federation citizen and represents Starfleet, bound by their laws; that was part of the deal.

Indeed.

Saru knew the risks when he left Kaminar. He knew he'd never be able to return. And he went anyway.

And we've also seen that he takes his role as a Starfleet officer very seriously; no matter how much he might believe in his heart that his people deserve to know the truth, he would never throw away the Prime Directive.

Although...

Spoiler: spoiler

Aren't we supposed to see Saru's sister again in a future ep? IIRC, she's on some kind of starship, but we don't know whose - might be Ba'ul, might be someone else's ship. Perhaps she will have something to do with this.

 

[Rahul]

I would think it's the knowledge and information itself that would (or wouldn't) be allowed to be relayed to a pre-warp society, not the person who provides the information.

Fully agreed. I think the only way Saru could return to his homeworld would be after a full and complete memory-wipe of his entire time away.

But besides that, I think it could be argued that Saru himself -- if he was never taken away from Kaminar -- might have figured out the truth of vahar'ai himself, and would have spread the word to his people. After all, he was a free thinker and a genius on his own planet prior to being taken away. If he had stayed, learned the truth, and spread that truth to his people, then that would have then been the natural development of Kaminar.

If that were the case, then it could be said that Georgiou taking him away is what would damage the natural development of his world, unless he would be allowed to tell his people what he would have told them if he didn't leave with Georgiou.

They might be denying the Kelpien's natural development by NOT allowing Saru to share what he has learned about vahar'ai (although that's about all he could share). That seems unfair if he can't tell them simply because he happened to be a Star Fleet officer at the time he figured it out.

That I'm not so sure about. Saying "they would have discovered this anyway" is reaaaallly bypassing the prime directive with a flimsy excuse. They should be free from opression from other species, be it the Ba'Ul or Cardassians. But after that, I think they have to find their own way to enlightenement.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

But there really isn't any way to prove or disprove that supposition, and I don't think the council would rule in favor of that big of a what if. The situation is that they have a refugee Kelpien from a pre-warp civilization. Whatever action Starfleet decides to take would mitigate any contamination based on the Prime Directive rules, and sending him back would do anything but mitigate.

Meh. A good lawyer could exploit that loophole and make the council agree with him -- as long as the plot wants him to. What I'm saying is that there are ways for the writers to get around it and still not violate canon if that's the story they want to tell.

Let's say someone argues for that, the next person is just going to say, 'But what if allowing Saru return to his people leads to a revolution and then a big ass genocide, you wanna be responsible for that?'

So be it. Picard and Co. would have been fine with that. They would have wrung their hands over it, but they would (thankfully) have the Prime Directive to cover their asses, allowing them to rationalize the genocide as "The genocide is unfortunate, but there's nothing we could have done, because: Prime Directive."

 

[oberth]

The Federation Peace treaty went into effect before DS9 started, but I got the impression (again with the Maquis storyline that started in SDS9) that Bajor was one of the previously held Cardassian systems that reverted to being in 'Federation Territory' AS a result of the Treaty.

i don't see thart supported whatsoever

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Fully agreed. I think the only way Saru could return to his homeworld would be after a full and complete memory-wipe of his entire time away.

Saru relaying the truth of the vahar'ai and his ganglia does not necessarily mean spending a lot (or any) time on Kaminar, nor does it mean talking extensively to a lot of Kelpiens; perhaps he speaks to just one. Nor does it mean telling that one Kelpien anything about the universe outside of Kaminar.

 

[Vger23]

Yeah, that particular DAY, happened already on Veridian III.

RIP

Too soon, gentlemen.

Too soon.

 

[Vger23]

Indeed.

Saru knew the risks when he left Kaminar. He knew he'd never be able to return. And he went anyway.

And we've also seen that he takes his role as a Starfleet officer very seriously; no matter how much he might believe in his heart that his people deserve to know the truth, he would never throw away the Prime Directive.

Although...

Spoiler: spoiler

Aren't we supposed to see Saru's sister again in a future ep? IIRC, she's on some kind of starship, but we don't know whose - might be Ba'ul, might be someone else's ship. Perhaps she will have something to do with this.

I liked that they clarified Saru's status as a "refugee" in this episode. It cleared up a point of confusion for me regarding the Short Trek...I always thought it was weird that they just swooped in and brought him to Starfleet.

It's still a bit of a stretch, but I can accept it.

 

[XCV330]

Too soon, gentlemen.

Too soon.

He is with Connolly now.

 

[Michael]

Actually I didn't quite get how and why Saru is a refugee. They didn't really make clear that he's running from anything. Seemed like he was just curious what was out there. Georgiou seemed to be the one who made him leave. Could he have said no and didn't go with her?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Georgiou did not make Saru leave Kaminar. She answered his distress signal, and made it quite clear that if he was to leave the planet he could never return. However the ultimate decision was up to Saru.

As for what he's running from? Being eaten by the Ba'ul...

 

[Michael]

Georgiou did not make Saru leave Kaminar. She answered his distress signal, and made it quite clear that if he was to leave the planet he could never return. However the ultimate decision was up to Saru.

As for what he's running from? Being eaten by the Ba'ul...

That's the thing, though. Did he really send a distress signal? Or just any kind of greeting?

My problem with the way they portrayed the Kelpien's life in “The Brightest Star” is that they didn't make entirely clear if it was just their normal course of life or a distressful situation. He didn't seem in need to be saved, to be honest. But maybe I read the whole episode wrong.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That's the thing, though. Did he really send a distress signal? Or just any kind of greeting?

I think it's safe to assume that it was a distress signal. Otherwise, why would Saru have bothered? What other possible objective could he have had? He doesn't just want to say Hello/world, he wants to ask for help.

He was obviously unhappy with his people's lot (as food for the Ba'ul), so he went to all that trouble to study the Ba'ul technology so he could find a way to escape.

Saru knew that if he stayed on Kaminar long enough, he - like all Kelpiens - would eventually be eaten. Obviously he didn't want to be eaten. Therefore he calls for help, so that he won't be eaten.

 

[Turtletrekker]

It could be that it is the Ba'ul that is interfering with the Kelpiens natural development.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

It could be that it is the Ba'ul that is interfering with the Kelpiens natural development.

This is seemingly the case, but Starfleet seems to only be concerned about their own interference and not about policing the interference other species may have on another if they are outside their territories.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Starfleet seems to only be concerned about their own interference and not about policing the interference other species may have on another if they are outside their territories.

Exactly. This is an internal matter between the Ba'ul and the Kelpiens. The Federation has no legal right to interfere. (Similar to the Cardassian occupation of Bajor.)

 

[DaveyNY]

I still wonder if the Ba'ul are actually eating the Kelpians or using them for some other purpose.
All we know is that that is what Saru believes, we haven't actually seen it take place. (yet)
Nor has there been any discussion to that fact in the Prime Universe.

In the MU, we never actually saw any Ba'ul (nor were they mentioned), all we saw was the Empire using them as a delicacy.
Michael's reaction to Emperor Georgieu's reveal of the food she was eating, made her aghast.
One would think she wouldn't have been that surprised if it was already known that the Kelpians were used in such a manner.
Surely Prime Georgieu would have let the Federation know if that was the case.