Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x04 - "An Obol for Charon"

[matthunter]

Better late than never:

• Soooo... they met the Enterprise in the opening teaser? To get Nr. 1 one board? But didn't show her, only the transporter pad? What? Why?

Nothing about the scene suggests she came direct from the Enterprise - indeed, dialogue suggests the Enterprise is still crippled and at Spacedock which Burnham later says Number One is "on her way back to". Suggests a shuttle or a connecting starship to me.

 

[Tuskin38]

The prime directive shouldn't apply to the Kelpians being harvested by the Ba'Ul: This is NOT "interference in internal issues" - The Ba'Ul already ARE breaking the prime directive towards the Kelpians, by harvesting a pre-warp society. Since TOS "A private little war", TNG "Redemption" (and numerous other Trek episodes, the newest being ENT "civilisation") - it has been established it is okay for Starfleet to "police" other species if they interfere in the internal matters of others.

Saru implied that the Ba’ul are native to Kamenar, so the prime directive would apply.

 

[XCV330]

#7- Because the swagger stick can't carry Styles.

#6 Because One Day Kirk Will Be In For Quite A Shock

 

[DaveyNY]

#6 Because One Day Kirk Will Be In For Quite A Shock

Yeah, that particular DAY, happened already on Veridian III.

 

[Timo]

^ Yeah, but DS9 was a backwater outpost in the middle of nowhere, so it makes sense that its CMO would not be that high of a rank.

An outpost with thrice as many patients as aboard Pike's current ship, though...

Discovery, OTOH, is a major ship of the line

With fewer people aboard than on Pike's previous ship...

Nothing about the scene suggests she came direct from the Enterprise - indeed, dialogue suggests the Enterprise is still crippled and at Spacedock which Burnham later says Number One is "on her way back to". Suggests a shuttle or a connecting starship to me.

Or then the ship was parked right next to Spacedock. I mean, what possible reason would she have had to be parked anywhere else?

Saru implied that the Ba’ul are native to Kamenar, so the prime directive would apply.

But we now know that Saru is wrong about everything. Probably about the origin and whereabouts of the Ba'ul, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Alan Roi]

Nothing about the scene suggests she came direct from the Enterprise - indeed, dialogue suggests the Enterprise is still crippled and at Spacedock which Burnham later says Number One is "on her way back to". Suggests a shuttle or a connecting starship to me.

Doesn't someone point out that particular starship should be hauled away as not being fit for service at a later date.

 

[XCV330]

Yeah, that particular DAY, happened already on Veridian III.

RIP

 

[Tuskin38]

But we now know that Saru is wrong about everything. Probably about the origin and whereabouts of the Ba'ul, too.

Timo Saloniemi

Which might be why they go back.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

• The prime directive shouldn't apply to the Kelpians being harvested by the Ba'Ul: This is NOT "interference in internal issues" - The Ba'Ul already ARE breaking the prime directive towards the Kelpians, by harvesting a pre-warp society. Since TOS "A private little war", TNG "Redemption" (and numerous other Trek episodes, the newest being ENT "civilisation") - it has been established it is okay for Starfleet to "police" other species if they interfere in the internal matters of others.

Saru implied that the Ba’ul are native to Kamenar, so the prime directive would apply.

Also, if the Federation has no relations with the Ba'ul and Kamenar is not in Federation space, Starfleet really has zero jurisdiction in the matter, unfortunately. Allowing Saru to return would be interference in internal affairs of the Ba'ul and Kelpien's evolution, whether or not their evolution was already altered by the Ba'ul or simply part of it, Starfleet can't make that call (as far as 24th Century style Prime Directive would say.) All of Saru's knowledge was gifted to him by Starfleet, so they would be directly responsible for anything good or bad that would come from Saru returning, drastically altering his society forever. It's not so much the prewarp that is the problem here, it is the consequences of forever changing an entire species in a single action.

 

[Ovation]

So I guess we still don't know who the CMO is.

Well, to be fair, Andorian tonsillectomies are REALLY complicated.

 

[Rahul]

Also, if the Federation has no relations with the Ba'ul and Kamenar is not in Federation space, Starfleet really has zero jurisdiction in the matter, unfortunately. Allowing Saru to return would be interference in internal affairs of the Ba'ul and Kelpien's evolution, whether or not their evolution was already altered by the Ba'ul or simply part of it, Starfleet can't make that call (as far as 24th Century style Prime Directive would say.) All of Saru's knowledge was gifted to him by Starfleet, so they would be directly responsible for anything good or bad that would come from Saru returning, drastically altering his society forever. It's not so much the prewarp that is the problem here, it is the consequences of forever changing an entire species in a single action.

Starfleet can't "break" the prime directive with the Kelpians (bring Saru back, start relationships, give them technology...).

But Starfleet can absolutely and should "free" from other outside interference. In TNG "Redemption", Starfleet absolutely could interfere in the "internal" Klingon Civil War as soon as it became apparent they weren't really internal affairs, but powered by outside interference from the Romulans. In TOS "A private little war" it was absolutely allowed to "restore" the power balance on the planet after Klingons gave one fraction advanced weapons. In ENT "civilisation" it was absolutely right to chase away the aliens that made experiments on the pre-warp planet.

The prime directive stops everyone from interfering in their internal affairs. Once another outside force already interferes with someone - it's not "internal" anymore. It's the absolute right and lawful thing to try to stop and reverse that interference so that the civilisation can go back to it's own, natural way.

The only reasons why they don't stop the Ba'Ul might be either

1. Realpolitik (maybe a peace treaty that grants them Kelp, in return for peace and them not harvesting any other planets), or
   
2. the Ba'Ul and Kelpians being the same species/from the same planet (thus it being an "internal" lifestyle again).

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Starfleet can't "break" the prime directive with the Kelpians (bring Saru back, start relationships, give them technology...).

But Starfleet can absolutely and should "free" from other outside interference. In TNG "Redemption", Starfleet absolutely could interfere in the "internal" Klingon Civil War as soon as it became apparent they weren't really internal affairs, but powered by outside interference from the Romulans. In TOS "A private little war" it was absolutely allowed to "restore" the power balance on the planet after Klingons gave one fraction advanced weapons. In ENT "civilisation" it was absolutely right to chase away the aliens that made experiments on the pre-warp planet.

The prime directive stops everyone from interfering in their internal affairs. Once another outside force already interferes with someone - it's not "internal" anymore. It's the absolute right and lawful thing to try to stop and reverse that interference so that the civilisation can go back to it's own, natural way.

The only reasons why they don't stop the Ba'Ul might be either

1. Realpolitik (maybe a peace treaty that grants them Kelp, in return for peace and them not harvesting any other planets), or
   
2. the Ba'Ul and Kelpians being the same species/from the same planet (thus it being an "internal" lifestyle again).

I'm leaning towards #2, that would be fascinating!

I don't disagree with any of that rationale at all; I mean, there are plenty of reasons why Starfleet should get involved, but they haven't. So why? It's easy to just say that the Prime Directive shouldn't apply here, but we've been told it does, so thinking up hypothetical reasons is a fun way to expand the nuances of the directive.

I mean, what if Kamenar is a planet or a moon within the Ba'ul's native system and there is a lot more than just a single probe that comes down to beam up some Kelpien from time to time. What if there are thousands of little Kelpien farms on this planet within a network of Ba'ul farming planets. That really doesn't seem, to me, like a situation where the Federation would get involved in what really would be an internal affair.

And if the Federation has relations with this species, I'm pretty sure all that they would do is use diplomats to urge the Ba'ul to stop their practices and the only solution after that is, what? War? Conquer the Ba'ul? Completely alter their society to fit with what the Federation finds fair?

It could be that the Shenzhou just managed to sneak in and sneak out, because saving a single Kelpien who was smart enough to call for help is better than doing absolutely nothing at all, which is where I think Starfleet would stand on the subject as they do later with the Cardassian and hypothetical Klingon subject species.

But I think the situation with the Kelpiens and the Ba'ul is gonna be something weird and less predictable that won't fit into this UN framework of thinking.

Now that I think about it, this could be the Federation's way of freeing the Kelpiens in the long run by allowing Saru to gain knowledge in hopes that he would break the rules someday to go start a revolution on Kamenar, while Starfleet looks the other way, and then comes to aid when the Kelpiens actually officially ask for help as a species (or at least Georgiou's master plan, she really is the mirror Emporer, isn't she?)

 

[Noname Given]

The prime directive stops everyone from interfering in their internal affairs. Once another outside force already interferes with someone - it's not "internal" anymore. It's the absolute right and lawful thing to try to stop and reverse that interference so that the civilisation can go back to it's own, natural way.

Again, talk to the Troyians of the 23rd century, or the Bajorans of the 24th century. The Federtation and Starfleet don't get involved in other civilizations UNLESS they see some realm benefit for the Federation (in the 23rd century) and when the plot requires it (in the 24th century - but to be fair, that may be just because we see it through the lens of Picard, who'll happily let the Federation be destroyed so he can stand on his principles).

The Federation isn't in the habit of "saving everything the Galaxy" - they are in the habit (especially in the 23rd century) of doing what's best for the Federation; and if nit helps the rest of the galaxy.

It's obvious the Federation knows of the Ba'ul/Kelpian situation, but chooses not to get involved in a major way. Who kniows, teh only reason they agreed to let Lt. Georgiou contact and make the offer to Saru was BECAUSE he demostrated a kinship with advanced technology - AND - it may be the only chance the Federation gets to observe and study Kelpians up close (as the race could die out/be farmed out of existence.)

Bottom line: Overall the Federation of te 23rd century doesn't see a good reason to become involved in whatever relationship exits between the Ba'ul and the Kelpians. That may eventually change, but as of right now, it's not the Federation's affair.

 

[Rahul]

I'm leaning towards #2, that would be fascinating!

I don't disagree with any of that rationale at all; I mean, there are plenty of reasons why Starfleet should get involved, but they haven't. So why? It's easy to just say that the Prime Directive shouldn't apply here, but we've been told it does, so thinking up hypothetical reasons is a fun way to expand the nuances of the directive.

I mean, what if Kamenar is a planet or a moon within the Ba'ul's native system and there is a lot more than just a single probe that comes down to beam up some Kelpien from time to time. What if there are thousands of little Kelpien farms on this planet within a network of Ba'ul farming planets. That really doesn't seem, to me, like a situation where the Federation would get involved in what really would be an internal affair.

And if the Federation has relations with this species, I'm pretty sure all that they would do is use diplomats to urge the Ba'ul to stop their practices and the only solution after that is, what? War? Conquer the Ba'ul? Completely alter their society to fit with what the Federation finds fair?

It could be that the Shenzhou just managed to sneak in and sneak out, because saving a single Kelpien who was smart enough to call for help is better than doing absolutely nothing at all, which is where I think Starfleet would stand on the subject as they do later with the Cardassian and hypothetical Klingon subject species.

But I think the situation with the Kelpiens and the Ba'ul is gonna be something weird and less predictable that won't fit into this UN framework of thinking.

Now that I think about it, this could be the Federation's way of freeing the Kelpiens in the long run by allowing Saru to gain knowledge in hopes that he would break the rules someday to go start a revolution on Kamenar, while Starfleet looks the other way, and then comes to aid when the Kelpiens actually officially ask for help as a species (or at least Georgiou's master plan, she really is the mirror Emporer, isn't she?)

I love all of these!

In fact - THESE are the type of prime-directive stories I want to see! Where the situation already is muddied, and now the question is what to do next. Much better than the "usual" prime directive (help or help not) like ENT "Dear Doctor".

Again, talk to the Troyians of the 23rd century, or the Bajorans of the 24th century. The Federtation and Starfleet don't get involved in other civilizations UNLESS they see some realm benefit for the Federation (in the 23rd century) and when the plot requires it (in the 24th century - but to be fair, that may be just because we see it through the lens of Picard, who'll happily let the Federation be destroyed so he can stand on his principles).

The Federation isn't in the habit of "saving everything the Galaxy" - they are in the habit (especially in the 23rd century) of doing what's best for the Federation; and if nit helps the rest of the galaxy.

It's obvious the Federation knows of the Ba'ul/Kelpian situation, but chooses not to get involved in a major way. Who kniows, teh only reason they agreed to let Lt. Georgiou contact and make the offer to Saru was BECAUSE he demostrated a kinship with advanced technology - AND - it may be the only chance the Federation gets to observe and study Kelpians up close (as the race could die out/be farmed out of existence.)

Bottom line: Overall the Federation of te 23rd century doesn't see a good reason to become involved in whatever relationship exits between the Ba'ul and the Kelpians. That may eventually change, but as of right now, it's not the Federation's affair.

Funnily enough - your example actually proves the point:

One of the reasons for the Cardassians leaving Bajor WAS political pressure from the Federation. That exactly means - the Federation did involve itself to "re"-establish "regular" order (Bajorans deciding their own fate internally again). That means the prime directive didn't apply for the Cardassian-Bajor occupation, and the goal of the Federation was to re-establish it.

Of course the Federation didn't start a war because of that. But they did insert themselves into the situation, in exactly the matter described - trying to course correct back to a "no external interference - not even by Cardassians"-politics.

That's the great stuff: A case where the Federation clearly has an ethical goal. But the question is how much force they are willing to use to achieve that, to make others follow their prime directive.

That's what makes the situation with the Ba'Ul so curious: That they specifically stated the prime directive applied (and not, say, the Federation clearly opposing this interference, but not willing to go to war over that, or the Ba'Ul maybe having strong backing from someone else, like the Romulans or something).

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

One of the reasons for the Cardassians leaving Bajor WAS political pressure from the Federation. That exactly means - the Federation did involve itself to "re"-establish "regular" order (Bajorans deciding their own fate internally again). That means the prime directive didn't apply for the Cardassian-Bajor occupation, and the goal of the Federation was to re-establish it.

This is not how I remember how and why Starfleet ended up at Bajor. There were lots of reasons why the Cardassians abandoned Bajor, and I think a major one was moreso that Bajor was becoming a subject planet of diminishing returns; the resistance was out of hand and the occupation's grasp was waning, combined with the low moral of losing so many soliders to a 'primitive' planet, as well as the natural resources being not as plentiful after 50 years of occupation where the Federation did nothing. As far as we know, the occupation began before the Federation had real dealings with the Cardassians. The war between the Federation and the Cardassians appear to have been border skirmishes and not a crusade against Bajoran slavery. It was only after the Cardassians left that the Bajorans requested the aid of the Federation, which is perfectly okay with them; Bajor was not prewarp and directly requested aid; the Prime Directive does not apply. Bajorans as a subject species of the Cardassian Empire and the unrest of being so is an internal affair of the Cardassian Empire, and thus the Prime Directive did apply.

 

[Noname Given]

One of the reasons for the Cardassians leaving Bajor WAS political pressure from the Federation. That exactly means - the Federation did involve itself to "re"-establish "regular" order (Bajorans deciding their own fate internally again). That means the prime directive didn't apply for the Cardassian-Bajor occupation, and the goal of the Federation was to re-establish it.

Of course the Federation didn't start a war because of that. But they did insert themselves into the situation, in exactly the matter described - trying to course correct back to a "no external interference - not even by Cardassians"-politics.

That's the great stuff: A case where the Federation clearly has an ethical goal. But the question is how much force they are willing to use to achieve that, to make others follow their prime directive.

That's what makes the situation with the Ba'Ul so curious: That they specifically stated the prime directive applied (and not, say, the Federation clearly opposing this interference, but not willing to go to war over that, or the Ba'Ul maybe having strong backing from someone else, like the Romulans or something).

^^^^
IDK if I'd characterize it as 'political pressure from the Federation' per se as it was part of the Federation/Cardassian p[eace treaty of teh Feds own direct war with the Cardassians (and in all the years of TNG and Ds9, while the end of said war was chronicled; the reason for the start of it never was n- and supposedly, it went on as far back as Picard's command of the Stargazer, through the first 3 Seasons of TNG - even though that fact was NEVER mentioned until TNG's 4th season.

But my point? The Bajor System and DS9 were ceded to the Federation in the same way A LOT of former Federation territory (with established Federation Colonies that the Feds TRIED like hell to get their citizens to move or move from) was ceded to the Cardassians. (And that left A LOT of disgruntled former Fed citizens to form the Maquis).

So again, I don;'t think you can say the Federation exerted any more 'political pressure' then the Cardassians did towards the Federation to get the Territorial concessions it received as part of the treaty.
^^^
The treaty itself was to end a direct war between the Federation and the Cardassian Empire. The Federation didn't appear to be lobbying for or against getting the Bajor system itself no longer being classified as being in Cardassian territory per se - it was part of a vast amount of territory that changed hands on BOTH SIDES.

Yes, the Bajorians IMMEDIATELY applied for Federation membership once their star system was no longer classed as being in Cardassian space; but again, I don't see any evidence that the Federation specifically cared if Bajor was included or not.

Bajor was invaded by Cardassia 60 years (and that's in on screen dialogue) prior to the start of the DS9 series. Unless the Federation/Cardassian war started and ran that long, I seriously doubt the plight of the Bajorians weighed very heavily on the minds of Federation diplomats from that time, until the time the Federation/Cardassian War started,

 

[Grendelsbayne]

^^^^
IDK if I'd characterize it as 'political pressure from the Federation' per se as it was part of the Federation/Cardassian p[eace treaty of teh Feds own direct war with the Cardassians (and in all the years of TNG and Ds9, while the end of said war was chronicled; the reason for the start of it never was n- and supposedly, it went on as far back as Picard's command of the Stargazer, through the first 3 Seasons of TNG - even though that fact was NEVER mentioned until TNG's 4th season.

But my point? The Bajor System and DS9 were ceded to the Federation in the same way A LOT of former Federation territory (with established Federation Colonies that the Feds TRIED like hell to get their citizens to move or move from) was ceded to the Cardassians. (And that left A LOT of disgruntled former Fed citizens to form the Maquis).

So again, I don;'t think you can say the Federation exerted any more 'political pressure' then the Cardassians did towards the Federation to get the Territorial concessions it received as part of the treaty.
^^^
The treaty itself was to end a direct war between the Federation and the Cardassian Empire. The Federation didn't appear to be lobbying for or against getting the Bajor system itself no longer being classified as being in Cardassian territory per se - it was part of a vast amount of territory that changed hands on BOTH SIDES.

Yes, the Bajorians IMMEDIATELY applied for Federation membership once their star system was no longer classed as being in Cardassian space; but again, I don't see any evidence that the Federation specifically cared if Bajor was included or not.

Bajor was invaded by Cardassia 60 years (and that's in on screen dialogue) prior to the start of the DS9 series. Unless the Federation/Cardassian war started and ran that long, I seriously doubt the plight of the Bajorians weighed very heavily on the minds of Federation diplomats from that time, until the time the Federation/Cardassian War started,

None of that ever happened. The Cardassians made peace with the Federation LONG before they abandoned Bajor and Bajor was never in Federation territory at any point during the entire run of DS9. When the Cardassians left, Bajor *and* DS9 became *Bajoran* territory. The only reason the Federation ever set foot there was because the Bajoran Provisional Govt. asked for their help, but even that could easily have been reversed if the Bajorans chose to do so (which was a major plot point early on in the series with the whole 'Circle' movement that was anti-Federation).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

(or at least Georgiou's master plan, she really is the mirror Emporer, isn't she?)

The Georgiou who came to rescue Saru was the prime universe version. That was way back when she was a Lieutenant.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Allowing Saru to return would be interference in internal affairs of the Ba'ul and Kelpien's evolution, whether or not their evolution was already altered by the Ba'ul or simply part of it, Starfleet can't make that call (as far as 24th Century style Prime Directive would say.) All of Saru's knowledge was gifted to him by Starfleet, so they would be directly responsible for anything good or bad that would come from Saru returning, drastically altering his society forever. It's not so much the prewarp that is the problem here, it is the consequences of forever changing an entire species in a single action.

But what if all Saru communicates to the Kelpiens is the truth he learned about the vahar'ai?

He discovered that knowledge himself, as a Kelpien, not through Star Fleet or Federation knowledge. He should be free to share that knowledge with other Kelpiens without violating General Order One/The Prime Directive.

As long as he keeps what he says limited to that, then I see no problem with his return -- although he would need a cover story for where he's been.

 

[Noname Given]

None of that ever happened. The Cardassians made peace with the Federation LONG before they abandoned Bajor and Bajor was never in Federation territory at any point during the entire run of DS9. When the Cardassians left, Bajor *and* DS9 became *Bajoran* territory. The only reason the Federation ever set foot there was because the Bajoran Provisional Govt. asked for their help, but even that could easily have been reversed if the Bajorans chose to do so (which was a major plot point early on in the series with the whole 'Circle' movement that was anti-Federation).

The Federation Peace treaty went into effect before DS9 started, but I got the impression (again with the Maquis storyline that started in SDS9) that Bajor was one of the previously held Cardassian systems that reverted to being in 'Federation Territory' AS a result of the Treaty.