Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND - Grading & Discussion

[Smellmet]

I think ID was quite important for Kirk.

In '09 he was an arrogant brat who succeeded through dumb luck and happenstance, and did not remotely deserve the chair.

In ID, he got the dressing down of a lifetime from Pike, his mentor/father figure, saw him die, got manipulated by Marcus and Khan, and wound up copping a sobering dose of humility. The whole film was a big wake-up call for him.

Without that, I would have found the jump in the character from '09 to Beyond too jarring.

Totally agree with this.

 

[fireproof78]

I think ID was quite important for Kirk.

In '09 he was an arrogant brat who succeeded through dumb luck and happenstance, and did not remotely deserve the chair.

In ID, he got the dressing down of a lifetime from Pike, his mentor/father figure, saw him die, got manipulated by Marcus and Khan, and wound up copping a sobering dose of humility. The whole film was a big wake-up call for him.

Without that, I would have found the jump in the character from '09 to Beyond too jarring.

I have to agree with this. The Kelvin films are really Kirk's story from immature to maturity and balancing out the extremes within himself (need to rebel, impulsiveness, etc). Without the failure of STID I don't think Kirk grows.

 

[RAMA]

I have to agree with this. The Kelvin films are really Kirk's story from immature to maturity and balancing out the extremes within himself (need to rebel, impulsiveness, etc). Without the failure of STID I don't think Kirk grows.

STID has one of the best Kirk speeches ever. Unlike most, it's about his own perspective and growth.

 

[charliefox]

I gave it a B plus. I mean it's good, but there's some room for improvement. Of course every one is a film director...

 

[WebLurker]

If anyone is interested, I wrote an article comparing Beyond's Jaylah to The Force Awakens' Rey.

Read the article. I will say that you presented your information clearly and made the article an interesting read. I'm not sure, though, if the arguments against Star Wars hold that much water, since they ignore information from TFA and other canonical sources. For example, the argument that Rey being multilingual is unrealistic doesn't work, since Star Wars has shown across the movies that being multilingual is extremely common in the Star Wars universe, to the point that even the lowest classes usually know more than one (like Anakin and his fellow slave and pauper friends in The Phantom Menace).

Her being able to use the lightsaber somewhat is setup by her knowing how to use a quarterstaff, she mentions that she has had actual experience flying before using the Falcon (and has been mastering the hardest possible flying scenarios on a professional flight simulator program she salvaged from the Graveyard, as established in Before the Awakening, Rey's Survival Guide, and Rey's Story), etc. IMHO, I never bought the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument, since pretty much every single point it belabors has been addressed in the movie and expanded on in the rest of the Star Wars canon (or requires ignoring parts of the movie), but your mileage may vary.

Respectfully, I will disagree. Rey is not idealized and is flawed, rejects her Force call, and is terrified of the world.

While I can appreciate the dynamic between Rey and Finn, I think that the romance is budding, at best.

Frankly, I'm not sure where the characters are going in the rest of the movies. TFA itself could either support them becoming a couple or simply having a close friendship, and some of the interviews with the people involved have implied that a love story (at least between these two characters) isn't in the works. On the other hand, the novelizations (which are canon) have some very interesting insights and material in regards to the characters interactions:

“The girl watched the droid and then turned to look at Finn. ‘So you’re wth the Resistance?’

"Finn met he gaze and noticed she was quite pretty when she wasn’t hitting him with her staff. He wanted to be honest with her, but what would she think of him if she knew he had been a stormtrooper?

“‘Obviously,’ he lied as he stood from the sand. Then he dropped his voice low, attempting to sound both brave and secretive." — Finn’s Story, Ch. 5, p. 41

“‘Are you okay?’ Finn asked…
“‘Yeah,’ she said and held her hand out to help him up. Grateful, he took it and didn’t let go.” — Finn’s Story, Ch. 6, p. 48

“It had been awhile since Finn had felt that comfortable with another person, and he could see that she felt the same way.” — Finn’s Story, Ch. 8, p. 62

“For a few moments, everything was perfect. Rey had given Unkar Plutt his comeuppance. She’d escaped soldiers and pilots aiming to kill her. And she’d found a new friend who, unlike BB-8, was flesh and blood. In fact, after getting a good look at him, he was quite—

“He cut into her thoughts. ‘Why are we—‘

“‘Staring at each other?’

“‘Yeah.’

“‘I don’t know.’" — Junior novelization, Ch. 8, pp. 68 - 69

“‘My name is Rey.’ This time when she smiled, all trace of the hardened, desert-dwelling scavenger melted away, It was a sweet smile, he found himself thinking. Warm. He repeated the name, enjoying the way his lips parted as he murmured the single syllable." — regular novelization, Ch. 6, p. 89[hardcover], pp. 98 - 99 [paperback]

“Rey sat at Maz’s table, stung by Finn’s departure. She had saved his life multiple times, and yet he had dumped her like an empty blaster cartridge. She chided herself for thinking he would be different."
— Junior novelization, Ch. 12, p. 112

“His confession confounded her more. He was a stormtrooper? A soldier for the First Order? Was everything she knew about him — felt about him — a lie?” — Junior novelization, Ch. 12, p. 113

“’The First Order. They’ve done it,’ said Finn. He scanned the crowd, but he couldn’t find the one person he wanted more than anything to be safe. ‘Where’s Rey?’

“Han didn’t know where she was. Finn was about to run into the forest to find her, but Maz grabbed before he could sprint off.” — Finn’s Story, Ch. 13, pp. 107 - 108

“Chewbacca ruffled, which told Rey what she had thought and hoped

“Finn glanced at the Wookiee. ‘What did he say?’

“‘That it was your idea,’ Rey said.” — Junior novelization, Ch. 19, p. 159

The thing I find the most interesting is how Alan Dean Foster changed the scene where Rey and Finn reconnect in Starkiller Base for his regular novelization:

“Running to Finn, [Rey] threw herself into his arms. Neither could hug the other hard enough or long enough. The embracing pair finally separated, if only to look into each other’s eyes." -- Ch. 16, p. 232 [hardcover], p. 268 [paperback]

(I cannot see how that scene could've been written to be read as platonic.)

It remains to be seen if the movies corroborate these ideas or not (the novelizations do have a few inconsistencies and material that contradicts the films), but I find it very interesting that the LucasFilm Story Group would allow the novelists to essentially imply that Finn and Rey are falling in love with each other. If the movies aren't going to build on this, it seems like a strange detail to add, much less keep consistent across the tie-ins (including stuff like Finn's Story, that were written long after the movie was finalized and it was presumably known what the character's relationship will be down the line).

I think that Finn and Poe has as much chemistry in their scenes as anyone else.

Say what you will about the movie, but the they did hire actors who bounce off each other well.

If we say that Rey is a Mary Sue because she is the romantic or other interest of other characters, then Leia falls in to that category as well, especially in Star Wars: A New Hope.

Never thought of that (the Leia part).

I think Finn has a much more interesting backstory and has his center-stage moments as well, as does Poe. Finally, Rey doesn't weaken the story by her presence or abilities.

Yeah. I do think. thought, that Poe, so far, is a supporting character (albeit a lively one), but yeah, Rey and Finn are for all practical purposes deuteragonists (have story arcs, advance the plot by the decisions they make, etc.).

I'll stand by my assertion that Rey is not a Mary Sue, just like I would say about Jaylah.

 

[Photoman15]

You can't say Rey is a Mary Sue until you see the trilogy.
Then if you say she is, then you have to say Luke is a Mary Sue (in the OT) also.
They're doing/have done the same thing.

 

[RAMA]

Has anyone kept up with Beyond twitter chatter lately?

At first I thought a lot of people were chiming in with opinions on it after a last theater viewing but it turns out most of them are people who did NOT see the movie in it's release..a whole lot of them! Obviously, it's the HD leak making the rounds. It's kind of annoying but almost ALL of the reactions are good..maybe 90%. Why didn't they listen to us and go see it?

RAMA

 

[fireproof78]

Has anyone kept up with Beyond twitter chatter lately?

At first I thought a lot of people were chiming in with opinions on it after a last theater viewing but it turns out most of them are people who did NOT see the movie in it's release..a whole lot of them! Obviously, it's the HD leak making the rounds. It's kind of annoying but almost ALL of the reactions are good..maybe 90%. Why didn't they listen to us and go see it?

RAMA

I'm not on Twitter, but that doesn't surprise me. It's frustrating that Beyond was written off by so many people and now discovering how fun it actually is.

 

[F. King Daniel]

If there's an HD leak doing the rounds it's going to hurt digital sales

 

[Smellmet]

If there's an HD leak doing the rounds it's going to hurt digital sales

Anyone who watches this aren't Star Trek fans and never gave a crap about the franchise is the first place. I'll be getting the full-price Blu-ray the day it's launched.

 

[RAMA]

I have no problems with anyone watching the leak. They should just buy a legal version too.

Anyone who watches this aren't Star Trek fans and never gave a crap about the franchise is the first place. I'll be getting the full-price Blu-ray the day it's launched.

 

[Rad]

For as much as I royally detested "Into Darkness" for the total rip-off of "Wrath of Khan"; we actually enjoyed "Beyond". The story was kinda cool, though the use of anachronisms by Lee got a bit old (why I gave it a solid B). Good touchstones in the movie. I actually got a little weepy when Spock was looking at the [TOS Movie photo] of the original crew as part of the Spock-Prime artifacts.

 

[BillJ]

For as much as I royally detested "Into Darkness" for the total rip-off of "Wrath of Khan"; we actually enjoyed "Beyond".

Beyond the use of the character, and the three minutes in the radiation chamber, can someone explain to me how Into Darkness is a rip-off of The Wrath of Khan? If anything, the story reminded me of a high-action version of "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost".

 

[M'Sharak]

... can someone explain to me how Into Darkness is a rip-off of The Wrath of Khan?

It wasn't, but if the phrases "royally detested" and "total rip-off" didn't register on your Hyperbole Detector, you might want to see about getting that recalibrated.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I already pre-purchased the blu-ray. I did it through VUDU, which has a contract with Walmart. I'll get the disc when it is released in stores, but I can watch the movie now on VUDU. Thanks to Walmart's Instawatch program for all movies that come with digital copies for their movies.

 

[eyeresist]

It wasn't, but if the phrases "royally detested" and "total rip-off" didn't register on your Hyperbole Detector, you might want to see about getting that recalibrated.

I think you are being overly generous. Calling STID a total rip-off of TWOK is simply wrong, and it's a misapprehension that needs correcting.

 

[M'Sharak]

I think you are being overly generous.

It's a failing of mine. I struggle with it constantly.

 

[eyeresist]

Gimme some money!!!

 

[fireproof78]

I think you are being overly generous. Calling STID a total rip-off of TWOK is simply wrong, and it's a misapprehension that needs correcting.

Agree on this point.

 

[donners22]

Beyond the use of the character, and the three minutes in the radiation chamber, can someone explain to me how Into Darkness is a rip-off of The Wrath of Khan?

I was arguing with someone who insisted it was a remake recently. It's bizarre.

Aside from the totally different theme, plot, presentation, characterisation, etc, they're virtually identical. Then again, so is pretty much anything else once you ignore those fundamental aspects. I guess All Good Things is just a ripoff of Encounter at Farpoint since they both have Q, the Enterprise crew and a courtroom scene.