Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND - Grading & Discussion

[ItIsGreen]

The movie did bother to remember that a Vulcan's heart is where a human's liver is. That kind of thing is usually forgotten immediately by TPTB. That was nice.

I have no doubt that's down to Simon Pegg. He's a massive nerd and a Trekkie, and he'd have known that's the kind of detail the hardcore fans would be all over if he got wrong. I read somewhere he got Memory Alpha to help name one of the devices in the film.

 

[Kotowboy]

Jaylah is absolutely *NOT* A damsel in Distress. If anything - she rescues them not vice versa.

Wil has some weird views. He thought Into Darkness was the best Trek movie.

 

[locutus101]

Jaylah is absolutely *NOT* A damsel in Distress. If anything - she rescues them not vice versa.

Wil has some weird views. He thought Into Darkness was the best Trek movie.

I don't think so. We didn't even get to see Admiral Marcus' head compression. Cheap!

 

[RAMA]

I mentioned this in my review. A good article

Star Trek Beyond makes the 2009 Star Trek a much better film
It reveals an ongoing story that's stronger than any one chapter

http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/1/12343636/star-trek-beyond-into-darkness-2009-film-jj-abrams

 

[M-Red]

I mentioned this in my review. A good article

Star Trek Beyond makes the 2009 Star Trek a much better film
It reveals an ongoing story that's stronger than any one chapter

Absolutely.

In many ways, BEYOND works better as a sequel to ST09 than STID does.

This story should have probably been the second nuTrek film, released in 2012 or '13. Nothing significant from STID is really carried over into BEY -- it's more or less ignored. And STID really didn't advance the character narratives forward in the same way that BEY did either.

As others have said, it'll be a shame if BEYOND is the last nuTrek film because they're really just now figuring out the franchise conceptually. BEYOND was the first nuTrek film in which I watch the characters and truly think I'm watching "Jim" and "Spock" or "Bones" and it's not jarring at all.

BEYOND worked all around for me on every level. Again, not a perfect film but it's easily my favorite of the nuTrek franchise and I'm very pleased with the final product. Very re-watchable.

 

[Malaika]

Poor Wil, he has a good success record with me agreeing with him, but he's wrong on this one...and I agree with KDB above...did HE really see the same film? Jaylah was a damsel in distress? Uh nope, she wasn't.

I guess she and Uhura are damsels in distress for the same reason any female character who has feelings and is in a relationship, automatically is just a love interest.
You'd think it should be easy for people to get the difference and not demonize some things, that often simply make characters human, only because the exaggeration of these things is a sexist trope; but as much people preach about criticizing sexism, they are the ones with unresolved double standards and sexism.

Trek fans kind of show this issue too. The movie subverted the damsel in distress trope when Uhura ends up saving Spock in spite of him wanting to save her, and then Jaylah who really has a badass moment helping the group and risking her life and then facing the person who killed her father. It all showed the strength of unity and being a group too. Yet, some reviews insist calling them damsels in distress.

In either case, there is nothing inherently wrong in girls getting help and getting saved too. In the end, Kirk needs to get saved too but no one would complain it diminishes his heroic moment for him as a character, and one maybe should ask themselves why a similar scene with a woman is perceived differently.
Spock wanting to save Uhura earlier is, also, supposed to be something that tells more about him, his feelings for her, and his need to act and do something in spite of his injury, than really any attempt by the writers to paint the woman as weak. Especially not in a situation where there is a whole group, including male officers, wlho needs to get saved there. In either case, it was unlikely, realistically, that Uhura, Sulu&co could get out of that situation on their own and it's unreasonable to ask the writers to not save/help female characters to make a point, and prove they aren't weak for aspects considered normal when it comes to the male characters (see Kirk in both movies)

Tl dr: they are all damsel in distress and none of them really is. Also, sometimes a heroic moment doesn't require a character to 'win' at any cost.

 

[katefan]

If anyone is interested, I wrote an article comparing Beyond's Jaylah to The Force Awakens' Rey.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

I was, but then it just became a rant about Rey and it became less interesting.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry, I can't agree with the conclusion. First of all, I think that Rey and Jaylah are similar in that they are both female, scavengers, and use staffs.

Secondly, they are interesting to me for two different reasons. I don't find Jaylah quite as engaging as Rey, though both are enjoyable characters. I don't see a need to stack them up and compare them.

Finally, I disagree with what appears to be the base assumption that Rey is a "Mary Sue." So, an interesting read, but I disagree with it from the first Red Leader on.

 

[Tosk]

It'd be nice if people just stopped referring to female characters as either a damsel or a Mary Sue. ...or at the very least, only use the terms when they know what the hell they actually mean.

 

[wayne39]

If anyone is interested, I wrote an article comparing Beyond's Jaylah to The Force Awakens' Rey.

Rey and Jaylah is the perfect difference of trek and wars. Jaylah felt like a real character with flaws, doubts and insecurity. Rey felt like a wish fulfilment character. its understandable why rey is called a mary sue

 

[RAMA]

I never even thought to compare the two. I guess there are surface similarities. Jaylah felt like an alien, and she had some good dramatic moments as well as funny ones. A well-rounded character. Rey felt like she was always angry and scowling for no particular reason. It's kind of sad she was the best new character in an otherwise uninspired movie.

 

[fireproof78]

I found Rey to be interesting, conflicted character with a tragic background. Having worked with children that have been abandoned by parents, there is a lot of anger that they have, without even knowing why.

It'd be nice if people just stopped referring to female characters as either a damsel or a Mary Sue. ...or at the very least, only use the terms when they know what the hell they actually mean.

Exactly. My wife writes fan fiction and have actively studied the concept of a Mary Sue to avoid it in her writings. Rey doesn't come close but it will still be repeated, ad nauseum

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Personally I loved both of them. I wouldn't know which I'd pick if I had to, but I do know that I'll be very upset if Jaylah is never seen again in the Trek movies and Rey single handedly (well, ok, I liked Finn and BB8, too) convinced me to go see the rest of this trilogy in theaters (which I wouldn't otherwise do because I just don't care that much about Star Wars). I also know that I would pick a movie starring Rey over one starring Luke Skywalker any day of the week and three times on Sunday.

 

[katefan]

From Wikipedia:

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment. Sometimes the name is reserved only for women, and male Sues are called "Gary Stus" or "Marty Stus"; but more often the name is used for both sexes of offenders."

From Definitions dot net:

"A fictional character, usually female, whose implausible talents and likeableness weaken the story."

From TVTropes:

"...In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature."

Going by these definitions I stand by my assertion that Rey is a Mary Sue. I would also add that everyone wants her in some capacity. Finn has romantic feelings towards her, Han wants to pretty much adopt her, Kylo Ren wants to become her new teacher or at least deliver her to Snoke. The guy on Jakku wants to keep controlling her by being her only source of food. Had Po not been sidelined for most of the third act I'm sure we would have gotten a Twilight style love triangle. Everything centers around Rey, where in the original Star Wars movie we had multiple storylines going on; Luke was not the central character, he could not have destroyed the Death Star without Han saving him. Po and Finn were relegated to supporting characters so Rey and the Nostalgia Squad could take center stage, and that's a shame.

 

[fireproof78]

Respectfully, I will disagree. Rey is not idealized and is flawed, rejects her Force call, and is terrified of the world. While I can appreciate the dynamic between Rey and Finn, I think that the romance is budding, at best. I think that Finn and Poe has as much chemistry in their scenes as anyone else. If we say that Rey is a Mary Sue because she is the romantic or other interest of other characters, then Leia falls in to that category as well, especially in Star Wars: A New Hope.

I think Finn has a much more interesting backstory and has his center-stage moments as well, as does Poe. Finally, Rey doesn't weaken the story by her presence or abilities.

I'll stand by my assertion that Rey is not a Mary Sue, just like I would say about Jaylah.

 

[austen_pierce]

I loved the Jaylah character. I do not expect we will see her again. I do not want to see her 'assimilated' into a Starfleet uniform.

 

[donners22]

This story should have probably been the second nuTrek film, released in 2012 or '13. Nothing significant from STID is really carried over into BEY -- it's more or less ignored. And STID really didn't advance the character narratives forward in the same way that BEY did either.

I think ID was quite important for Kirk.

In '09 he was an arrogant brat who succeeded through dumb luck and happenstance, and did not remotely deserve the chair.

In ID, he got the dressing down of a lifetime from Pike, his mentor/father figure, saw him die, got manipulated by Marcus and Khan, and wound up copping a sobering dose of humility. The whole film was a big wake-up call for him.

Without that, I would have found the jump in the character from '09 to Beyond too jarring.

 

[eyeresist]

Going by these definitions I stand by my assertion that Rey is a Mary Sue.

I think a Mary Sue has to be an avatar for the writer (or at least regarded as such by the audience), otherwise it's just a poorly drawn character.

 

[USS Firefly]

I agree that Rey is a little bit too good at everything she does.