Should TOS characters be seen or referred to?

[jaime]

Fuller's made it pretty clear that he views the cast of the current movies as the accepted casting for the TOS characters, saying that he might like to have Ryder playing Spock's mother at some point.

After Stranger Things, and her waste of an appearance in 09, I would love that as part of an episode. And I dislike the reboots, and am meh on Spock in any universe, but think that would tie things carefully. It's not like Amanda has so many appearances as to set up any dissonance. Having Pine as Kirk in a Prime set series would do that, but Ryder as Amanda would not.

 

[jaime]

Yes, that sounds familiar. the actual translation for logic meaning reality-truth. I only read 3 TOS books. My Enemy, My Ally, The Romulan Way, and Spock's world, but it was ages ago.

Reading about Brannon Braga in the 50-year mission vol2, and by his own admission he didn't care about continuity and thought the idea of treating scifi like legitimate drama was absurd. He believed it was a storytelling device to do wacky adventure stories is kind of how he put it. He was antithesis to Ronald D. Moore who treated it exactly like legitimate drama, and had respect for the existing continuity (and past). This is how badly Enterprise was executed, that they didn't put the right people in place to create a show that falls apart if continuity is ignored. Then how do we get here from there.

All of the series' best seasons have one thing in common. The writing staff was solid whether larger or smaller, and the producer was way above par, if not excellent.

Agreed about we fans not confusing her with the other timeline, but since she appeared so recently, and DSC needs to attract the casual viewer, it might seem confusing. But she's a good actress and was Hollywood A-list 25 years ago, so I wouldn't mind seeing her develop the role of Amanda.

Braga really wasn't that good for Trek, on balance, was he?

 

[Kevin Wolff]

Braga really wasn't that good for Trek, on balance, was he?

IF he was tempered by a writer like Moore then he was good for making sure the scripts aren't all fan service or too much drama. But as a showrunner for a show like Voyager and Enterprise, not really IMHO.

 

[jaime]

IF he was tempered by a writer like Moore then he was good for making sure the scripts aren't all fan service or too much drama. But as a showrunner for a show like Voyager and Enterprise, not really IMHO.

Yup. That and his penchant for weird with no rhyme or reason lets him down. The wired interview floating around the Internet from the time of Voyager, where he basically makes a point of wandering off to read De Sade really throws up a light on his approach. I agree. I wonder how Voyager would have been without him in particular....enterprise too to an extent, but I think that was the result of a tired creative team needing time for a better idea. Something Berman wanted too.

 

[ChristopherPike]

There's always room for an Admiral "Safe Hands" Fitzpatrick appearance.

[a really obscure blooper reel reference]

 

[Paradise City]

TNG approached it fairly well. Keep mentions of other series to a minimum and do a smart story featuring a known character down the line when the series is embedded in. And don't get hung up and what actor plays what, so long as they are good for the role.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Nope.

 

[Jedi_Master]

TNG approached it fairly well. Keep mentions of other series to a minimum and do a smart story featuring a known character down the line when the series is embedded in. And don't get hung up and what actor plays what, so long as they are good for the role.

I agree, even though they included a Klingon as a member of the crew - a radical departure from TOS.

 

[Kevin Wolff]

Yup. That and his penchant for weird with no rhyme or reason lets him down. The wired interview floating around the Internet from the time of Voyager, where he basically makes a point of wandering off to read De Sade really throws up a light on his approach. I agree. I wonder how Voyager would have been without him in particular....enterprise too to an extent, but I think that was the result of a tired creative team needing time for a better idea. Something Berman wanted too.

Ron Moore spoke of his ideas for Voyager while it was on the air around the time he did his one or two eps. He said that it would have to be completely different, almost different than DS9. The rules of starfleet would not apply at all beyond basic morality, and they could not waste power, essentially bringing the ship out of the 24th that was already getting stale and bring them back to a more savage 23rd mentality. No holodecks. The holodecks would be converted to schools and agriculture, etc.

The Maquis would never wear starfleet uniforms nor would they behave like starfleet and that alone could have driven a chunk of the drama in the first couple years. Janeway would be forced to deal with them as equals, not subordinates. They'd integrate out of necessity, not for morale. Imagine Torres becomes engineer after Carey is killed and there's no one else, rather than some choice made between a starfleet officer and a criminal.

Also he said it should be a generational ship mentality. Replacing lost crew with new alien allies and having children would be a priority to keep going. The ship would get beat up over time and would start looking different since they'd need to use non-federation tech for repairs and upgrades. Also, the interior would be decorated like people live there, not just work there. The different cultures would be expressed through their art and decor.

I think they should have formed a convoy over time too. A lone ship on a journey that long with little foreknowledge was the biggest issue to me. Power consumption a close second. A couple main characters should have died or stayed behind too.

 

[jaime]

Ron Moore spoke of his ideas for Voyager while it was on the air around the time he did his one or two eps. He said that it would have to be completely different, almost different than DS9. The rules of starfleet would not apply at all beyond basic morality, and they could not waste power, essentially bringing the ship out of the 24th that was already getting stale and bring them back to a more savage 23rd mentality. No holodecks. The holodecks would be converted to schools and agriculture, etc.

The Maquis would never wear starfleet uniforms nor would they behave like starfleet and that alone could have driven a chunk of the drama in the first couple years. Janeway would be forced to deal with them as equals, not subordinates. They'd integrate out of necessity, not for morale. Imagine Torres becomes engineer after Carey is killed and there's no one else, rather than some choice made between a starfleet officer and a criminal.

Also he said it should be a generational ship mentality. Replacing lost crew with new alien allies and having children would be a priority to keep going. The ship would get beat up over time and would start looking different since they'd need to use non-federation tech for repairs and upgrades. Also, the interior would be decorated like people live there, not just work there. The different cultures would be expressed through their art and decor.

I think they should have formed a convoy over time too. A lone ship on a journey that long with little foreknowledge was the biggest issue to me. Power consumption a close second. A couple main characters should have died or stayed behind too.

Yeah, I only really liked a few of those more 'realistic/dark' approaches to VOY though, and think the overall choice not to go that route was the right one tbh. I definitely think it would have been unrealistic to show that level of entropy over seven years to be honest. Even the children thing would barely kick in more than it eventually did in that time span. The Maquis are fundamentally ex Federation to start off with, Starfleet was never enough of their enemy for that to create believeable conflict either...the border wars hadn't been going on long enough, and the enmity not great enough. If there had been a Cardassian ship alongside them, maybe, but just Starfkeet and Maquis? Nah. All of Chakotays crew were federation members, and a few were ex Starfleet one way or another. I would have liked a more homely voyager, perhaps a more relaxed uniform code, but again...after only 7 years, not much would have changed, even with the poodoo Voyager regularly found itself in.
After all, if it had found itself in a sector where tech was more advanced or as advanced as the federation, they would have had an easy time, if it was more advanced, they would eventually find help or a shortcut, and if it was less advanced, as initially shown, well...they would just be too advanced to be at much risk.
The biggest factor was always time. For Voyager to work in a seven year span, we would need to jump years and decades between episodes, or run the show to a very tight plan with smaller jumps but a projected 10 years or more run.

 

[Kor]

Ryder has been doing other television work in the last few years, so maybe she wouldn't be averse to the idea.

But maybe her starring role in "Stranger Things" wouldn't let her fit it into her schedule.

Kor

 

[BillJ]

Reading about Brannon Braga in the 50-year mission vol2, and by his own admission he didn't care about continuity and thought the idea of treating scifi like legitimate drama was absurd. He believed it was a storytelling device to do wacky adventure stories is kind of how he put it. He was antithesis to Ronald D. Moore who treated it exactly like legitimate drama

You need both kinds of writers for a show like Star Trek.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Fuller's made it pretty clear that he views the cast of the current movies as the accepted casting for the TOS characters, saying that he might like to have Ryder playing Spock's mother at some point.

My first thought when they announced the timeframe of DISCOVERY:

Now they can have the movie cast guest appear as their "Prime" counterparts, i.e. "On a special episode of DISCOVERY, Zachary Quinto and Bruce Greenwood appear as Spock and Captain Pike" or "This week, Karl Urban as Dr. McCoy" or "Chris Pine as James T. Kirk."

And honestly most people won't give two shits, other than hardcore fans, on whether they're the Prime or Kelvin versions. They'll just see them as Kirk, Spock, Pike or McCoy. Because they are.

 

[Kor]

Threshold was certainly wacky, to put it... diplomatically.

Kor

 

[Kevin Wolff]

You need both kinds of writers for a show like Star Trek.

Agreed. They did a pretty good job on First Contact where they were left alone to write without a laundry list from the studio beyond making it accessible to non-Trek viewers.

With Generations, they weren't so lucky. Much of what ended up in the film was not what they wanted. For example, Patrick Stewart's script control came into play. He wanted the death of the brother to be horrific and even said burn him (René wasn't even supposed to die originally and Robért died of a heart attack in the vineyards like someone of his dignity should have been killed off). Reading the 50-year mission vol2 is a real eye-opener regarding how actor fame leads to control of the script that they shouldn't have.

After First Contact, Patrick wanted someone else to write and direct the next one. When that didn't work out and they came back to Braga and Moore, Braga was in but Moore said no. And then Michael Piller wrote a script that made it seem like he never even worked on Trek before, much less been a driving force in S3 and S4. No one else would direct and it came back to Frakes.

 

[jaime]

Agreed. They did a pretty good job on First Contact where they were left alone to write without a laundry list from the studio beyond making it accessible to non-Trek viewers.

With Generations, they weren't so lucky. Much of what ended up in the film was not what they wanted. For example, Patrick Stewart's script control came into play. He wanted the death of the brother to be horrific and even said burn him (René wasn't even supposed to die originally and Robért died of a heart attack in the vineyards like someone of his dignity should have been killed off). Reading the 50-year mission vol2 is a real eye-opener regarding how actor fame leads to control of the script that they shouldn't have.

After First Contact, Patrick wanted someone else to write and direct the next one. When that didn't work out and they came back to Braga and Moore, Braga was in but Moore said no. And then Michael Piller wrote a script that made it seem like he never even worked on Trek before, much less been a driving force in S3 and S4. No one else would direct and it came back to Frakes.

To be fair, insurrection felt the power of Patrick more than being a failing of Piller.

 

[JeffinOakland]

Don't care one way or the other as long as the show doesn't suck.

 

[Kevin Wolff]

To be fair, insurrection felt the power of Patrick more than being a failing of Piller.

I just read the part where Piller regretted what was on screen. He said his attempt to bring Data back to his Pinocchio roots and ignore the emotion chip did not work, and made Data ineffective and childish beyond the ethics protocols scene.

The dialog is terrible. Picard asking Worf if he knows GIlbert and Sullivan and looking at him like he's crazy when thinks Picard meant crewmembers. And who's 19th century?. Data serving as a flotation device? Lock and Load? Writing/casting an all-white Ba'ku, which they admit they are now ashamed of in how that slipped by them. The joystick helm control [shudder].

On the flip side, F. Murray and Zerbe were great. Really great. And it did have a story with a relevant message of forced relocation. Just horrible execution.

 

[BillJ]

Picard asking Worf if he knows GIlbert and Sullivan and looking at him like he's crazy when thinks Picard meant crewmembers.

Only scene in the whole movie that I actually like.

 

[Marsden]

Dangerously approaches the kind of small universe and fanwank stuff that drives away new viewers (and is the stuff of fan films), but if they could do it in a way where it doesn't matter that you know the back story (see: the easter eggs in Beyond) then I would not oppose it, and probably would drool over it. I think it would be easier to use minor characters that we don't have a lot of expectations about how they "really" are. If indeed the Number One is THE Number One, that's a good example. Maybe characters that were TOS one-offs: Daystrom, Boyce, Finney, etc. But not characters like Mudd, as much as I'd love it.

That would really be something if the first episode is Pike wishing Number One good luck on her first command! But I doubt that would happen.
And I don't see how that would hurt anyone's viewing pleasure, no one needs know more than that this person is the other's former commander and is wishing them luck on to better things.
For those who don't know who Pike is, those living on Mars, in a cave, with their eyes closed and fingers in their ears, he's just an old boss.

I was really hoping for a third universe to start up, unrelated to Prime or Alternate universes, so that they could pick and choose what to use without worrying about established continuity. I always enjoy how adaptations of things like comic books or Sherlock Holmes books or the different Transformer cartoons will do their own spin on things. I'm not really that interested in this show though but even if I don't watch it I hope it's something that old fans enjoy and draws in new viewers.

A whole new third universe would have been ok with me, too. Anything but continuing the movie continuity is ok with me.