Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Warped9]

I will say that while I rated "The Pegasus" a 5 I can't help but reflect that perhaps part of what makes it stand out is the episodes that preceded it. I've made no secret that in general I haven't been crazy of Season 6 and most of the Season 7 episodes I've seen so far. Compared to much of the S6 and S7 episodes "The Pegasus" seems brilliant. But candidly it isn't the best TNG has done. I think the 5 rated episodes from Seasons 2-4 are distinctly better overall. Indeed in comparing "The Pegasus" with "Parallels" immediately before it I think "Parallels" feels fresher and more creative.

 

[Anwar]

I always felt the Feds were alright to have made the decision they did. They had a choice between fighting a bloody all-out war with the Romulans that would kill billions and devastate their major territories or they could agree not to develop cloaks while still develop better sensors and anti-cloaking tech.

Plus, we don't know what the Romulans gave up so we only get half the story.

 

[Warped9]

Plus, we don't know what the Romulans gave up so we only get half the story.

That's a very good point. It would be nice to know.

 

[BillJ]

Wouldn't you need cloaking tech though in order to develop effective counter-measures?

 

[Anwar]

Not really, the crew of the ENT-A didn't need cloaking tech to build their homing torpedo. And they already knew enough about the type of energies given off by the cloak to know what to potentially look for.

Hell, Kirk and co were able to spot a cloaked ship by just LOOKING at the distortion effect in Search for Spock.

 

[Warped9]

And in "Balance Of Terror" they could detect the cloaked BoP's approximate location by motion sensors.

 

[Ubik]

I will say that while I rated "The Pegasus" a 5 I can't help but reflect that perhaps part of what makes it stand out is the episodes that preceded it. I've made no secret that in general I haven't been crazy of Season 6 and most of the Season 7 episodes I've seen so far. Compared to much of the S6 and S7 episodes "The Pegasus" seems brilliant. But candidly it isn't the best TNG has done. I think the 5 rated episodes from Seasons 2-4 are distinctly better overall. Indeed in comparing "The Pegasus" with "Parallels" immediately before it I think "Parallels" feels fresher and more creative.

I don't really agree with you, here. (Surprise!) Comparing Parallels and Pegasus doesn't make much sense to me, because they're from two different subgenres of TNG. (It's like trying to figure out if Wrath of Khan or Voyage Home is better, something I've always found impossible to do.) Parallels is a 5-star episode in the group of episodes that include Cause and Effect, Clues, and other Brage-esque Twilight Zone mystery-type stuff. In that group, it stands out wonderfully.

The Pegasus, while perhaps not as "original" as Parallels, is not trying to be. What it is trying to be is an intense political character-driven drama, along the lines of other great Romulan episodes, like The Defector, The Enemy, and Face of the Enemy. In that group, I think it also stands out very well. In fact, I think I actually prefer Pegasus to, say, The Enemy, and I think it's just about as good as The Defector.

What it has going for it, above all else, is the best character work for Riker the show has ever done. It also has possibly the best guest performance, from Locke. And, it also has the best ever "Picard tells off a crew member" scene - "I'll have to re-evaluate the command structure on this ship. Dismissed." Intense stuff.

Anyway, I think my point is, even if Pegasus had arrived in season 4, it would still be looked at as one of the top 20 episodes of the series or so.

 

[Trekker4747]

Plus, we don't know what the Romulans gave up so we only get half the story.

That's a very good point. It would be nice to know.

I think the Romulans gave up "taking over and destroying the Federation."

 

[Warped9]

In Season 3 or 4 "The Pegasus" might have come off as a 4 rather than a 5. Yes, "The Pegasus" and "Parallels" are different kinds of stories, but as a science fiction fan "Parallels" is the more interesting idea while "The Pegasus" is using an idea that was already seen in Season 5's "The Next Phase." The other thing about "The Pegasus" is that the interpersonal conflict between Riker and Pressman seems to be lacking some genuine heat. And I attribute some of that to Frakes calibre as an actor because Patrick Stewart certainly had no problem telegraphing his suspicion and doubt and annoyance to Riker. And Terry O'Quinn also telegraphed his feelings quite clearly as well.

We get interesting information about Riker but this isn't Frakes' best performance. His indignation after boarding the Pegasus struck me as a more a bit overblown rather than convincingly genuine.

 

[BillJ]

The Pegasus, while perhaps not as "original" as Parallels, is not trying to be. What it is trying to be is an intense political character-driven drama, along the lines of other great Romulan episodes, like The Defector, The Enemy, and Face of the Enemy. In that group, I think it also stands out very well. In fact, I think I actually prefer Pegasus to, say, The Enemy, and I think it's just about as good as The Defector.

The Pegasus is nowhere near as engaging as The Defector, The Enemy, Sins of the Father, The Drumhead or The Wounded which are all five star episodes. This is why it's problematic when fans make every episode a five-star episode. You begin debating which five-star episode is better. The Pegasus is a three-star outing. Perhaps if the episode had focused on someone who could actually act, I'd think better of it.

What it has going for it, above all else, is the best character work for Riker the show has ever done. It also has possibly the best guest performance, from Locke. And, it also has the best ever "Picard tells off a crew member" scene - "I'll have to re-evaluate the command structure on this ship. Dismissed." Intense stuff.

Nothing intense here. We're already to a point where we knew this show took absolutely no risks.

Anyway, I think my point is, even if Pegasus had arrived in season 4, it would still be looked at as one of the top 20 episodes of the series or so.

Too many other great season four episodes, this one would've been lost in the crowd had it aired there. It's a mediocre episode that gets better ratings than it deserves because it aired in the wasteland that was season 7.

 

[RAMA]

The Pegasus, while perhaps not as "original" as Parallels, is not trying to be. What it is trying to be is an intense political character-driven drama, along the lines of other great Romulan episodes, like The Defector, The Enemy, and Face of the Enemy. In that group, I think it also stands out very well. In fact, I think I actually prefer Pegasus to, say, The Enemy, and I think it's just about as good as The Defector.

The Pegasus is nowhere near as engaging as The Defector, The Enemy, Sins of the Father, The Drumhead or The Wounded which are all five star episodes. This is why it's problematic when fans make every episode a five-star episode. You begin debating which five-star episode is better. The Pegasus is a three-star outing. Perhaps if the episode had focused on someone who could actually act, I'd think better of it.

What it has going for it, above all else, is the best character work for Riker the show has ever done. It also has possibly the best guest performance, from Locke. And, it also has the best ever "Picard tells off a crew member" scene - "I'll have to re-evaluate the command structure on this ship. Dismissed." Intense stuff.

Nothing intense here. We're already to a point where we knew this show took absolutely no risks.

Anyway, I think my point is, even if Pegasus had arrived in season 4, it would still be looked at as one of the top 20 episodes of the series or so.

Too many other great season four episodes, this one would've been lost in the crowd had it aired there. It's a mediocre episode that greats better ratings than it deserves because it aired in the wasteland that was season 7.

Although most people including ourselves rate episodes by season because its an easy organizational tool, I tend to think of them as a pool of episodes, regardless of season...to me Pegasus IS in my top 20 episodes and I have no problem associating it's quality with other earlier high quality episodes.

 

[Warped9]

Grading an episode isn't an exact science.

- What is it about?
- What does it seem to be trying to say?
- How well does it execute its ideas?
- What are the quality of its ideas?
- How does it make me feel?

And that's just scratching the surface.

It must be said that there are some lower rated episodes that I still rather like because of what they're about just as there can be some higher rated episodes that while technically well executed can still leave me somewhat unmoved to varying degree. This is why there isn't always consensus regarding the quality of a particular work---we all bring different expectations to the experience. What works for one won't automatically work for another.

If someone is predisposed to liking something then they may be more forgiving when the quality slips. To someone else not so forgiving it can be seen as bias. If someone is more detached then they may well be more critical in their acceptance, which could be seen by a fan as being unfairly harsh.

 

[RAMA]

"The Pegasus" *****

The Enterprise is dispatched to salvage a vessel presumed lost twelve years earlier.

Pretty good story with a glimpse into the history of a very young Wil Riker. This is another one I remember liking and still do. One thing I liked about this story is that it showed that this 24th century Starfleet isn't perfect. Admiral Pressman wouldn't have gotten as far as he did twelve years earlier without sufficient backing. And this would indeed be right up the alley of an intelligence agency.

It really does raise a very good question: did the Federation do the right thing by agreeing not to develop cloaking technology or anything similarly related? Of course I would think that they also would not have agreed to not developing cloaking counter measures---that would have been incredibly foolish.

STNG could have left this subject untouched, it would have been easy. Fans were asking the questions for years, but someone actually came up with a good idea and a good script for the cloaking device issue, and was so highly thought of, the producers of ENT dug it out to use as the basis of the ENT finale. The conclusion: undecided on the cloaking issue(at least till the Defiant), but the UFP needs to follow its current rules unless otherwise changed. The episode shows that the decisions made were not easy ones. *****stars

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Grading an episode isn't an exact science.

- What is it about?
- What does it seem to be trying to say?
- How well does it execute its ideas?
- What are the quality of its ideas?
- How does it make me feel?

And that's just scratching the surface.

It must be said that there are some lower rated episodes that I still rather like because of what they're about just as there can be some higher rated episodes that while technically well executed can still leave me somewhat unmoved to varying degree. This is why there isn't always consensus regarding the quality of a particular work---we all bring different expectations to the experience. What works for one won't automatically work for another.

If someone is predisposed to liking something then they may be more forgiving when the quality slips. To someone else not so forgiving it can be seen as bias. If someone is more detached then they may well be more critical in their acceptance, which could be seen by a fan as being unfairly harsh.

I may be unusual because as a SF/Trek fan I tend to rate things on successful conceptual ideas, and most fans do not. Of course I take into regard characters, story, production pros or cons, acting, etc...but I think I've figured this is the main reason I like certain episodes of any series over and above what others like or dislike them less than others. I've noticed some reviews tend to comment on surface issues and I usually cut to the heart of the concept/theme.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

Well I've certainly noted that if the writers do something really out of left field (like I think they did in "Chain Of Command" and "The Gambit") that can throw me out of the story and make me more cynical about the rest of it.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Plus, we don't know what the Romulans gave up so we only get half the story.

That's a very good point. It would be nice to know.

The plasma blob o' doom from Balance of Terror?

 

[Holdfast]

I haven't really been following this thread recently because S7 isn't as compelling as the other seasons (it's almost certainly my least rewatched DVD set). Parallels is a definite 5-star standout, I agree. Pegasus would be 4-star ep on Warped9's scale for me. It's good, but not brilliant, though the ending is solid enough to not disappoint. From the eps reviewed so far, I'd put both Dark Page and Inheritance in that 4-star category too. The rest are either average, or downright poor.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Grading an episode isn't an exact science.

Yes I've never really paid much attention to grades posters give to episodes since they are so subjective--two people may like the same episode exactly but one might give it 3 stars and the other 4 stars because of what a 3 star means to them.

I've also found some people may say they like the same episode but look for different things in them. That's why I pay attention to what a poster lists as their likes/dislikes from a given episode. Some may grade it down because of inaccurate science but it may not bother someone else. That way I know which posters I personally want to give weight to and those I don't i.e. those who penalize an episode because it has wacky science a la The Chase or Genesis--two episodes I personally enjoy but have bad science. Some fans take note of the directing something I don't take much notice of. Some people penalize an episode because of it being a reset. Some complain that the Xindi arc on ENT sucked because the outcome was never or doubt I always ignore that because it doesn't ruin the arc for me. So it gives me an idea where they are coming from.

I don't have a checklist going into an episode--I watch it then realize afterwards what I enjoyed about it. I'm stingy with perfect 4 star episodes I rarely give them out--they have to have really exceptional writing, every scene in the hour must be good and it must hold up to repeated viewings not losing something over the years.

My initial feelings from the original run usually don't change although once in a while they do. For instance, I hated Sub Rosa when it first aired but enjoy it now as a guilty pleasure.

 

[BillJ]

I guess my own criteria for how good an episode is, is if I want to see it again. I prefer The Naked Now to The Pegasus because I find it to be far more fun to watch on repeat viewings. The Pegasus had a great concept but got bogged down in techno-babble (that and Frakes looks like he has to take a dump whenever he tries to act). From a storytelling perspective what did the 'phase-cloak' offer over a regular 'cloak'? Sometimes the writers simply over-think an episode and it shows.

 

[Ubik]

I guess my own criteria for how good an episode is, is if I want to see it again. I prefer The Naked Now to The Pegasus because I find it to be far more fun to watch on repeat viewings. The Pegasus had a great concept but got bogged down in techno-babble (that and Frakes looks like he has to take a dump whenever he tries to act). From a storytelling perspective what did the 'phase-cloak' offer over a regular 'cloak'? Sometimes the writers simply over-think an episode and it shows.

Rewatchability? What an odd and arbitrary criterion for quality. I'm sure Animal House is more easily "rewatchable" than 2001: A Space Odyssey, but that in no way means it's a better movie. In fact, some of the best filmed art is indeed quite difficult to watch. Some of the best movies are extremely challenging. I wouldn't call, for example, Schindler's List an easy movie to rewatch, but that doesn't mean it isn't high quality.

In terms of Star Trek, I think Chain of Command doesn't have the rewatchability factor of even, say, Deja Q, but it's a far better episode.