Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Ubik]

...well at least we know it's just your opinion.

Not that I'm going to derail this thread with a sidetrack, but, um, this isn't in the least a controversial or rare opinion. The guest cast alone on Deep Space Nine makes the cast of TOS (except the Big Three who are all fantastic) look like amateurs. Are you really going to argue with me that Rene Auberjonois is a weaker actor than, say, James Doohan? Or that Nana Visitor is a weaker actor than Nichelle Nichols? That would just be silly.

You realize, of course, that acting styles and expectations changed dramatically in the intervening 40 years between TOS and DS9, right?

Why? Not at all. Acting styles and expectations might have changed drastically after Marlon Brandon made The Method popular, but that happened a decade or two earlier, in the 50's. By the 60's, that new and ultra-realistic acting style was already fully entrenched. There's no reason to lower one's standards or change one's expectations for acting just because someone is watching something from the 60's. There was plenty of fantastic acting, on television, in film, and in theatre, during the 60's - just not so much on TOS. The actors on TOS were just, for the most part, sub-par, except, as I said, for the Big Three, who are just as good as Patrick Stewart, as well as half the extended cast of DS9. Again, none of this that I'm saying is remotely controversial or odd. Hey, I love TOS, but it isn't because of the subtle and layered acting of the side characters.

 

[Warped9]

^^ You've suggested bias in others yet yours is clearly showing. The acting in DS9 is in no way whatsoever superior to what has been seen in TNG and TOS and many other television series.

In TOS the secondary characters suffered from lack of exposure and sufficient materiel to work with. And that's also been true in many other series. I've seen plenty enough of DS9 to see that the acting there can leave a great deal to be desired and that is from the main characters.

James Doohan and Nichelle Nichols in particular have done acceptable work elsewhere besides TOS, but they're not well known for it. Same with Majel Barrett. But in TOS they were rarely called upon to do much. particularly after the first season. I will say that I like Scotty much better in the first season because he's much less caricatured, but from Season 2 onward and into the films (except perhaps TMP) he became more exaggerated and caricatured. Same with Walter Koenig as Chekov. In this I blame the direction they were given rather than what I think they were capable of. With Nichelle Nichols I do know that if you watch Uhura in the background she's always doing something rather than just waiting to say a few lines. I also think the TOS cast, both regular and guest, were often quite good with non verbal acting---they could telegraph a great deal with their eyes, body language and facial expressions. Nimoy had to be particularly good at this to convey so much from a character who claimed to have no emotions.

You can say you really like the cast of DS9, but objectively they were not in anyway superior. Indeed all the Trek series have had decent casts, even the shows I detest (VOY and ENT), and so it really came down to what was asked of them. It came down to the writing and direction.

 

[Ubik]

^^ You've suggested bias in others yet yours is clearly showing. The acting in DS9 is in no way whatsoever superior to what has been seen in TNG and TOS and many other television series.

In TOS the secondary characters suffered from lack of exposure and sufficient materiel to work with. And that's also been true in many other series. I've seen plenty enough of DS9 to see that the acting there can leave a great deal to be desired and that is from the main characters.

James Doohan and Nichelle Nichols in particular have done acceptable work elsewhere besides TOS, but they're not well known for it. Same with Majel Barrett. But in TOS they were rarely called upon to do much. particularly after the first season. I will say that I like Scotty much better in the first season because he's much less caricatured, but from Season 2 onward and into the films (except perhaps TMP) he became more exaggerated and caricatured. Same with Walter Koenig as Chekov. In this I blame the direction they were given rather than what I think they were capable of. With Nichelle Nichols I do know that if you watch Uhura in the background she's always doing something rather than just waiting to say a few lines. I also think the TOS cast, both regular and guest, were often quite good with non verbal acting---they could telegraph a great deal with their eyes, body language and facial expressions. Nimoy had to be particularly good at this to convey so much from a character who claimed to have no emotions.

You can say you really like the cast of DS9, but objectively they were not in anyway superior. Indeed all the Trek series have had decent casts, even the shows I detest (VOY and ENT), and so it really came down to what was asked of them. It came down to the writing and direction.

Fair enough. Then I guess DS9 just had better writing and direction.

Actually, in all seriousness, I do disagree with you, slightly. I think all the Trek shows had at least a couple of classically-trained superior theatre actors that stood head and shoulders above the other actors in the cast. In TOS, Shatner, Kelley, and Nimoy in particular, are clearly the best actors of the bunch, while on TNG, Patrick Stewart is obviously wiping the floor with everyone else's asses (except perhaps Brent Spiner who, although pretty bad at other parts, is excellent as Data.) It's not just writing and direction - Nimoy, when given great material, does more with it than, say, Doohan, when given good material. And Stewart is better, when given any material, than, say, Jonathan Frakes, when given fantastic material. Some of the actors are clearly better than others.

My opinion about DS9 comes from the fact (I believe) that there are more of those stand-out actors on the show than on the other shows. Colm Meaney, Nana Visitor, Rene Auberjonois, Mark Alaimo, Andrew Robinson...there are just more classically-trained theatre actors on that show, and they do stand out above the more mediocre television actors. I just think a higher percentage of the DS9 cast can hit great material out of the park than on the other Star Trek shows.

 

[Harvey]

If I can say anything on the subject of acting, it would be that Colm Meaney and Alexander Siddig have gone on to better work post-Trek than any of the other (non-leading) regular actors who have been part of the franchise. I think that speaks strongly to their acting talents.

 

[Warped9]

"Parallels" *****

Worf finds himself shifting across different realities.

I remember liking this and I still do. The changes for Worf begin subtly and then become increasingly divergent from the familiar. I think this was a pretty decent way to tell a story about different realities and without getting bogged down in alternate timelines and continuities largely because Worf is the one constant we can hang on to. The bit with the Enterprise from a reality dominated by the Borg was creepy. In some respects I wish this episode could have gone on a bit longer to explore more of the differences.

 

[Harvey]

"Parallels" could have made for a great Star Trek feature film. There's definitely material in the episode for two hours -- easily.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Make "Parallels" the two-part season opener, and let the lame-ass pirate story be a standalone that noone likes.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Did I mention already that I love Brannon Braga high concept sci-fy mysteries? He is masterful at executing them beautifully and are always fresh and fun--he's great at conjuring up the perfect moments to fit his stories i.e. Worf's birthday party leading to all the differences and shifts. I loved the touches--Dr Ogawa, Capt Riker where Picard wasn't freed from the Borg, the changing trophies, Wesley, the set design changes, the visual of millions of Enterprises all hailing at once.

Behind AGT the best episod all season. a perfect 4 stars.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I don't recall liking AGT so it'll be interesting to see experience again and see if I like it any better than before.

 

[Ubik]

Did I mention already that I love Brannon Braga high concept sci-fy mysteries? He is masterful at executing them beautifully and are always fresh and fun--he's great at conjuring up the perfect moments to fit his stories i.e. Worf's birthday party leading to all the differences and shifts. I loved the touches--Dr Ogawa, Capt Riker where Picard wasn't freed from the Borg, the changing trophies, Wesley, the set design changes, the visual of millions of Enterprises all hailing at once.

Behind AGT the best episod all season. a perfect 4 stars.

Braga's high concept sci fi mysteries were indeed mostly fantastic - in TNG. By the time Voyager came around, however....

 

[startrekwatcher]

Did I mention already that I love Brannon Braga high concept sci-fy mysteries? He is masterful at executing them beautifully and are always fresh and fun--he's great at conjuring up the perfect moments to fit his stories i.e. Worf's birthday party leading to all the differences and shifts. I loved the touches--Dr Ogawa, Capt Riker where Picard wasn't freed from the Borg, the changing trophies, Wesley, the set design changes, the visual of millions of Enterprises all hailing at once.

Behind AGT the best episod all season. a perfect 4 stars.

Braga's high concept sci fi mysteries were indeed mostly fantastic - in TNG. By the time Voyager came around, however....

Well it was a mixed bag--he could still do fantastic shows like Scorpion but yes a lot of his high concept stuff was middling at times--Non Sequitir, The Killing Game, Hope and Fear, Unimatrix Part II, his re-write on Repression etc.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

"Parallels" *****

Worf finds himself shifting across different realities.

I remember liking this and I still do. The changes for Worf begin subtly and then become increasingly divergent from the familiar. I think this was a pretty decent way to tell a story about different realities and without getting bogged down in alternate timelines and continuities largely because Worf is the one constant we can hang on to. The bit with the Enterprise from a reality dominated by the Borg was creepy. In some respects I wish this episode could have gone on a bit longer to explore more of the differences.

One of THE most awesome episodes TNG produced, period. And quite a smart twist, I think, to put Worf in the story instead of another character. He certainly put any theories Q might have that he was a "microbrain" to rest here.

I've actually written fanfic that takes place in one of those universes; the Catacombs of Oralius series takes place in the one where Cardassian and Bajoran roles are reversed. The central character is a "good twin" version of Dukat.

I can also highly recommend the Paths Not Taken series by trekfan over at Ad Astra (the same site where my work is posted), if you're interested in the universe where the Borg took over.

 

[RAMA]

"Parallels" *****

Worf finds himself shifting across different realities.

I remember liking this and I still do. The changes for Worf begin subtly and then become increasingly divergent from the familiar. I think this was a pretty decent way to tell a story about different realities and without getting bogged down in alternate timelines and continuities largely because Worf is the one constant we can hang on to. The bit with the Enterprise from a reality dominated by the Borg was creepy. In some respects I wish this episode could have gone on a bit longer to explore more of the differences.

Fantastic, definitely in my top 20 STNG episodes. Nothing but superlatives for this one. ***** stars

 

[Trekker4747]

Why? Not at all.

I guess I should've said TV acting styles have changed. In the 50s and 60s TV wasn't exactly seen as a great place to show of great acting talent, today it is.

 

[Warped9]

Why? Not at all.

I guess I should've said TV acting styles have changed. In the 50s and 60s TV wasn't exactly seen as a great place to show of great acting talent, today it is.

I disagree. This sounds something like a holdover from an old bias that you work in television because you can't get film work. But many good actors got their start in television before getting a break into films. There was a lot of good, nuanced acting done back in the day only they may not have been given their due because much of television was whitewashed as second grade work which was totally unfair, biased and not at all true.

 

[Warped9]

"The Pegasus" *****

The Enterprise is dispatched to salvage a vessel presumed lost twelve years earlier.

Pretty good story with a glimpse into the history of a very young Wil Riker. This is another one I remember liking and still do. One thing I liked about this story is that it showed that this 24th century Starfleet isn't perfect. Admiral Pressman wouldn't have gotten as far as he did twelve years earlier without sufficient backing. And this would indeed be right up the alley of an intelligence agency.

It really does raise a very good question: did the Federation do the right thing by agreeing not to develop cloaking technology or anything similarly related? Of course I would think that they also would not have agreed to not developing cloaking counter measures---that would have been incredibly foolish.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I've thought The Pegasus was overrated based on the general gushing by many fans. It is a decent enough story but it doesn't have the epic scope, devastation and brilliance as BoBW does or the ability to stir the fire in a viewer's belly and get you thinking like The Measure of Man does or the psychologically gripping effect that unnerves a viewer the way Chain of Command II does.

I thought the whole putting Riker in the brig was a bit too much and the secret Riker kept to himself was fair. A good not great episode--3 stars out of 4.

 

[Ubik]

I've thought The Pegasus was overrated based on the general gushing by many fans. It is a decent enough story but it doesn't have the epic scope, devastation and brilliance as BoBW does or the ability to stir the fire in a viewer's belly and get you thinking like The Measure of Man does or the psychologically gripping effect that unnerves a viewer the way Chain of Command II does.

I thought the whole putting Riker in the brig was a bit too much and the secret Riker kept to himself was fair. A good not great episode--3 stars out of 4.

Bah. Warped9 is right on the money about this one.

 

[GNDN]

5 Star Episode. One of the few high points of S7

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I've thought The Pegasus was overrated based on the general gushing by many fans. It is a decent enough story but it doesn't have the epic scope, devastation and brilliance as BoBW does or the ability to stir the fire in a viewer's belly and get you thinking like The Measure of Man does or the psychologically gripping effect that unnerves a viewer the way Chain of Command II does.

I thought the whole putting Riker in the brig was a bit too much and the secret Riker kept to himself was fair. A good not great episode--3 stars out of 4.

Bah. Warped9 is right on the money about this one.

Nah, it's too mainstream.

I like more obscure, less appreciated episodes, like Sub Rosa.