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Revisiting ST-TNG...

To each his own.

Man, you're just impossible to pick a fight with, aren't you? :)
To quote a great Scotsman: "We're big enough to take a few insults. It's not worth fightin' about." :lol:


"Birthright" Part I ***

Worf searches for his father while Data has a vision.

Data's story was moderately more interesting, but this is obviously meant to play on two characters searching for something connected with their father's. Worf's story could have been told in one episode and probably have been more compelling for it. I found it dragged. I also thought having Bashir from DS9 involved was extraneous and served no purpose other than to try to instill some interest in the then new DS9 with TNG viewers.

What can I say? I wasn't all that taken with this episode originally and I still really don't find myself engaged by it.

I think part of what I'm experiencing is that I don't have a very strong emotional investment in these characters and so if if I don't find the stories engaging then the characters often aren't enough in themselves to keep me interested.
 
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The problem with TNG at this stage is it is showing its age. I love TNG but the next few episodes aren't that great-Birthright a two parter really?. It also didn't help that DS9 was trying to get going.

Loved Birthright, one of the greatest sequences on TV ever to me was Data's dream sequence. I thought they did a fantastic job...a 2-parter with some wonderful sci-fi (the android developing its sentience/personality)
Data was already sentient I don't see how a dream program changes that. Yes the dream sequence was visually evocative but not enough to justify the pretty routine investigating into what happened to Data that preceded it during the first 3/4 of the hour.

Birthright just didn't justify being a two parter. Bashir and DS9 were gratuitous and added nothing, Worf's outbursts were getting tiresome by now so another hissy fit did nothing for me, we didn't even get to meet Mogh instead the writers pulled a bait-and switch turning the story into a well worn enemies living together with a forced "romance" with B'ael and Worf that couldn't be anymore tedious and lacking chemistry. And by this stage I was tired of Klingon stories with the whole honor routine and chest thumping bits so what do we get a whole hour that was essentially "My Life as a Klingon". And worse yet the rest of the cast in the second hour were pretty much MIA.

Sure there will be decent episodes over the next season and a half(Timescape, The Chase, Starship Mine, Descent, Parallels, Genesis, All Good Things" but the consistency is not there and the spark that marked the heyday of the series was definitely missing at times.

Its a huge progression for the character, while he has rights and IS sentient, he does not have the full capacity that his creator designed for him, therefore he is still learning much like a child. A dream is a wonderful, existential platform to launch an episode about his growth. I think they did a masterful job. Prob should have gotten a Hugo or Writer's Guild nom, but that's hindsight. Seeing DS9 was just gravy.

RAMA
 
"Tapestry" ***

Near death Picard is given a chance to change the course of his life.

I remember liking this more. When I first saw it I was quite taken with the idea, but not it seems rather ordinary. Much of the script seem almost rubber stamped and predictable. It isn't horrible, but it isn't anything special either. I still like the idea of the story, but part of what takes me out of it is seeing Patrick Stewart playing his younger self---it just doesn't really work for me.

Bah. You lost me.

This episode, by the way, is miles ahead of anything TOS ever did. Sorry, but it so clearly is.

Tapestry, really?

Now if you had replaced the mentioned episode with The Best of Both Worlds or The Drumhead, you might have had an argument.

Tapestry uses to much in the way of elements (uninteresting and overused) from earlier episodes to feel like anything more than filler and uninteresting filler at that.

Like most of seasons 6 and 7, Tapestry is something I'll probably never revisit again.

I thought Warped9 was kind to this episode.

Tapestry is usually on people's top 10-20 lists of fav episodes. I'd say it falls just outside my top 20.
 
JAG had an interesting gimmick (well I thought so) whenever they told a flashback or historical like story. They simply recast many of the regulars as other characters set in the past. I found this interesting. I particularly liked one where they told a story of an elderly veteran visiting the grave of a WW2 nurse who lost her life saving others. Well as he flashed back in memory Mac became the nurse and Harm an injured marine and the rest of the cast were personnel aboard a hospital ship. I thought it worked.

Watching "Tapestry" I couldn't help but wonder if that could have been more interesting if they had used that gimmick. And note that DS9 did use that gimmick on at least one occasion when Sisko imagined himself as a SF writer back in the 1950s. I'm blanking on the name of the episode, but I did happen to like it.
 
Yeah, I have never cared for "Tapestry" and "Birthright," and would honestly give them a lower rating than even Warped9 has. Honestly, a Trek 2-parter needs a big, epic, sweeping plot, not a weak character-focused episode that eliminates one of its own threads entirely by part two. And, as for "Tapestry," let's just say I find DS9's "Q-Less" a much better episode, yes, really.

In a broader sense, I find these episodes aren't really about "boldly going." Also, I prefer to learn about the characters through a plot, instead of having an episode merely focus on the hows and whys of a character itself. Through a plot, one can learn a great deal about a character--how he/she reacts, his/her style of action, etc. and much more. By Season 5 and 6 especially, with very few exceptions, TNG went too character-heavy and didn't have good plot-based action-adventure like it often did so well in the first 3 1/2 years. Thankfully, Voyager would excel at that later on, ironically, especially in its later seasons.

That's all just me, though, and hey, if you love the character study episodes, more power to you. :D
 
Tapestry is usually on people's top 10-20 lists of fav episodes. I'd say it falls just outside my top 20.

I also had difficulty buying the set-up of the episode. The viewer is suppose to believe that because young Picard uses common sense on occasion that he would somehow lose the drive that made him the only freshman to win the Academy marathon? And end up a lowly Lieutenant J.G. thirty five years into his career. I call bullshit.

Tapestry said:
TROI: Hasn't that been the problem all along? Throughout your career you've had lofty goals, but you've never been willing to do what's necessary to attain them.

It seemed at points in season six and seven the writers didn't even know the characters they were writing for.
 
Tapestry is usually on people's top 10-20 lists of fav episodes. I'd say it falls just outside my top 20.

I also had difficulty buying the set-up of the episode. The viewer is suppose to believe that because young Picard uses common sense on occasion that he would somehow lose the drive that made him the only freshman to win the Academy marathon? And end up a lowly Lieutenant J.G. thirty five years into his career. I call bullshit.

Tapestry said:
TROI: Hasn't that been the problem all along? Throughout your career you've had lofty goals, but you've never been willing to do what's necessary to attain them.

It seemed at points in season six and seven the writers didn't even know the characters they were writing for.

I think there is a lot of SF that begins with the time travel paradox and butterfly effect these days...whereby even a minute change in history will change the future radically. I don't find the change in Picard hard to accept at all on those terms and remember, it's still all derived from a Q manipulation.

On a personality level, do people really change that much? Sure they do, it's also not hard to believe a young punk/rebel/trouble maker could change over a period of time. A similar story is used fro Kirk in ST09. He has a lot of growing to do despite his obvious command talents.

RAMA
 
"Tapestry" ***

Near death Picard is given a chance to change the course of his life.

I remember liking this more. When I first saw it I was quite taken with the idea, but not it seems rather ordinary. Much of the script seem almost rubber stamped and predictable. It isn't horrible, but it isn't anything special either. I still like the idea of the story, but part of what takes me out of it is seeing Patrick Stewart playing his younger self---it just doesn't really work for me.

Far too harsh--this is one of the best episodes of the series, and certainly one of the best uses of the "Q" character. Stewart playing his character at a younger age is a major conceit, but since the episode is basically a fantasy facilitated by Q, I don't mind. The episode explains it away, anyway. Besides, Stewart is a terrific actor and I'd hate to have to sit through an hour devoted to the Picard-character that sidelined him as an actor.

And I don't know about it being rubber stamped--I thought the script gave us a pretty good look at Picard as a young man and the decisions that formed his character as we've come to know him on the series.

I'd agree about "Birthright," however. It's not a bad episode, but it's not outstanding. And the structure is a bit odd for a series like TNG, but it makes sense. The Data plot is too thin to carry an entire episode, but the Worf plot is too heavy to fit into a single episode. Since they're connected thematically, why not put them together?
 
Far too harsh--this is one of the best episodes of the series, and certainly one of the best uses of the "Q" character. Stewart playing his character at a younger age is a major conceit, but since the episode is basically a fantasy facilitated by Q, I don't mind. The episode explains it away, anyway. Besides, Stewart is a terrific actor and I'd hate to have to sit through an hour devoted to the Picard-character that sidelined him as an actor.

Exactly right, why hand this role over to a lesser actor?

RAMA
 
Far too harsh--this is one of the best episodes of the series, and certainly one of the best uses of the "Q" character. Stewart playing his character at a younger age is a major conceit, but since the episode is basically a fantasy facilitated by Q, I don't mind. The episode explains it away, anyway. Besides, Stewart is a terrific actor and I'd hate to have to sit through an hour devoted to the Picard-character that sidelined him as an actor.

Exactly right, why hand this role over to a lesser actor?

RAMA

This is where the whole bland aspect comes in. If they do their research and find the right actor, you create potential to further explore the young Picard character.
 
Part of what bothers me with "Tapestry" is its simplistic notion. Did young Picard ever have doubts about picking a fight with the Nausicans before he actually did it? And that couldn't have been the only questionable thing that young Picard did. I also found it highly unlikely that his life afterwards was so profoundly different that all he became was a Lieutenant Jr. Grade.

I feel like they had a good idea and pretty well just hashed it together. In some respects it seems more like a dream rather than a Q manipulated event. Indeed I think it's more likely that as he lay near death Picard was simply hallucinating/dreaming on the edge of unconsciousness. And this despite the fact that at the end Picard seemed to believe that Q was actually involved.

In a way this really isn't that different from a holodeck story.
 
Part of what bothers me with "Tapestry" is its simplistic notion. Did young Picard ever have doubts about picking a fight with the Nausicans before he actually did it? And that couldn't have been the only questionable thing that young Picard did. I also found it highly unlikely that his life afterwards was so profoundly different that all he became was a Lieutenant Jr. Grade.

I feel like they had a good idea and pretty well just hashed it together. In some respects it seems more like a dream rather than a Q manipulated event. Indeed I think it's more likely that as he lay near death Picard was simply hallucinating/dreaming on the edge of unconsciousness. And this despite the fact that at the end Picard seemed to believe that Q was actually involved.

In a way this really isn't that different from a holodeck story.

In a way, this really isn't that different from indefensible nonsense.

Here's the thing: it did happen. When you wake up, you know if you just had a dream. Picard knows he didn't. So it was real.

Also, it is completely plausible that his life would be altered based on this event. This isn't some everyday occurrence here. Either it's the day he got stabbed in the heart, or it's the day he alienated his two best friends from university. As for myself, I still have both my heart, and my best friend from university, so I can understand how the loss of either of those things could have had a profound effect on my values, my self-worth, my goals, and my very direction in life. If you say such an event is unlikely to drastically alter one's life, then I say that you're just plain wrong. Lives have been altered on far less drastic choices than this one (and this one is, as I said, pretty drastic.)

In a way, this episode has the same theme as the TOS episode with the split Kirks, the one with the transporter accident. The idea is, basically, that to be a success in life, one must be a bit reckless, less cautious, more courageous and maybe even a bit stupid. Kirk learns that lesson one way, Picard learns it another way. And for my money, the TNG version is far less juvenile and silly, far more emotionally affecting.

And I believe you've even stated why it is you're no longer enjoying the series - you lack an emotional connection with the characters. And because this season is so character-based, an emotional connection is probably necessary to enjoy it. But see, about that lack of emotional connection, that's an obstacle that lies in your own head, not on the screen. You may just as well say you lack an emotional connection to the characters in The Godfather or American Beauty, but that doesn't make them bad movies - it just makes you a bad viewer, or at least one with different sensibilities than the filmmakers require of their viewers.

Look - Tapestry and Chain of Command are very well-produced pieces of drama, objectively speaking (or, at least, as objective as one can be about these things, which is more, I think, than some people would like to admit.) They are two of the more well-produced hours of science fiction television of the last few decades. If you just don't dig them, because you just don't really care about what's happening onscreen, that's a very cogent and illuminating review of your own dramatic viewing sensibilities, but it says absolutely nothing about the episodes themselves.

You had me on the lesser quality of season 5 - because you were right. And you were right about the first third of season 6. But now you've just lost credibility, I think. You're tired of the series, for whatever reasons your TOS-based expectations have supplied for you, and so you've lost the ability to be objective about its successes. (Imagine a film review of Blade Runner, for example, by a guy who just doesn't dig sf - it wouldn't be very useful would it?)
 
You had me on the lesser quality of season 5 - because you were right. And you were right about the first third of season 6. But now you've just lost credibility, I think. You're tired of the series, for whatever reasons your TOS-based expectations have supplied for you, and so you've lost the ability to be objective about its successes. (Imagine a film review of Blade Runner, for example, by a guy who just doesn't dig sf - it wouldn't be very useful would it?)

I call bullshit here. Just because I Star Trek it means I can't be objective about The Next Generation? Not every sci-fi fan loves Blade Runner either.

Even TNG uber-fan RAMA said Tapestry didn't rank in his top 20 TNG episodes...
 
You had me on the lesser quality of season 5 - because you were right. And you were right about the first third of season 6. But now you've just lost credibility, I think. You're tired of the series, for whatever reasons your TOS-based expectations have supplied for you, and so you've lost the ability to be objective about its successes. (Imagine a film review of Blade Runner, for example, by a guy who just doesn't dig sf - it wouldn't be very useful would it?)

I call bullshit here. Just because I Star Trek it means I can't be objective about The Next Generation? Not every sci-fi fan loves Blade Runner either.

True. But if an sf fan dislikes Blade Runner, they may have good reasons. If someone who generally hates sf dislikes Blade Runner, their reasons may, on the other hand, be very unconvincing.

My point is just that, there's very little purpose in reviewing a show whose sensibilities you don't and never have agreed with. If someone who generally understands, appreciates, and is moved by what TNG tries to do gives Tapestry a negative review, I will be more than willing to entertain it. Hey - maybe they'll even convince me! But if the review is by someone who doesn't even like the world view, values, or storytelling approach of the series as a whole, then very probably their reasons will be unconvincing. It'd be like reading a negative review of a chapter in Anna Karenina by someone who finds Russian literature boring. What would be the point?
 
I've always found Tapestry to be an enjoyable romp. The conceit of Stewart playing Picard as a younger man, the overt silliness of some of Q's gags (predicting Voyager?) such as his 20th century doctor impression, waking up in bed w Picard, and even his very serious intonement that he is God with the big G, are all elements that make me wonder if this is indeed more of a hallucination on Picard's part.

Is A Christmas Carol meant to take place in reality with actual ghosts visiting Scrooge? Or is it a morality play in which emotion and sleep deprivation cause the character to realize something about himself. Q is simply playing the Ghost of Starfleet Past here. I've also always found it telling that aside from TNGs pilot and finale, this is the only TNG 'Q' episode that doesn't have 'Q' in the title. In the pilot, we hadn't met Q so the pun would be meaningless, and in the finale, Q's involvement was kept as a surprise and a mystery so the title would have given away the gag. Here, Q is introduced in the teaser, but much about his methods and mannerisms are in contrast to his previous appearances.

I think of this episode not as a visit by Q, but as an admittedly simplistic morality play during Picard's 'brush with death'
 
True. But if an sf fan dislikes Blade Runner, they may have good reasons. If someone who generally hates sf dislikes Blade Runner, their reasons may, on the other hand, be very unconvincing.

My point is just that, there's very little purpose in reviewing a show whose sensibilities you don't and never have agreed with.

I'm a huge Star Trek: The Next Generation fan and Warped9 has given far more three, four and five star reviews than I ever would have. So I honestly don't question whether his general views about it are making him dishonest in his reviews.

For me, Tapestry is dull with a setup I just can't buy. I never once thought Picard was in any type of danger from the chest wound or from Q. Then you want me to buy that someone as talented as Jean-Luc Picard would just kick around Starfleet in a dead-end job for thirty-five years...

They were sellin' the idea, I just ain't buyin'.
 
Then you want me to buy that someone as talented as Jean-Luc Picard would just kick around Starfleet in a dead-end job for thirty-five years...


Hardly seems implausible to me - quite the contrary in fact.
 
Looking forward to revisiting this one (just at start of s6). But from vague memories of initial viewing whenever it was, I think whoever mentioned the 'Christmas Carol' connection is spot-on.
 
It's "Wonderful Life" more than Christmas Carol.

But the message is the opposite, really. Wonderful Life is "You may not realize it but you've had a positive impact on everyone around you."

Tapestry's message is "You can't pick and choose the events of your life. You are who you are from the good and the bad. Your mistakes you regret made you who you are and you should accept that."
 
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