Revisiting ST-TNG...

[BillJ]

The TNG movies were ill-conceived at best, they tried to take an ensemble TV show with little in the way of real action and turn it into an action movie franchise. Star Trek worked on the big screen because the characters were larger-than-life, The Next Generation cast was just far too reserved for a two-hour action blockbuster.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, I agree with that.

I'll use the old analogy I came up with that compared the Trek Franchise to a Cow, see if I can make my point:

Typical corporate reaction to a cash cow is never EVER deviate from what worked before and make sure to squeeze every drop of milk out.

A better technique would be to treat the cow gently, let it do it's own thing as long as it doesn't hurt itself (as in, go directly against what Trek is) and offer it good grass to eat and a little nookie on the side.

That would mean less money in the immediate time, but an ultimately longer-lasting and healthier cow.

 

[RAMA]

Which still didn't work out, since the ensemble cast didn't translate well to the big screen, and "All Good Things" simply rose the quality bar too high to match.
And most of the better stories suited for the big screen had already been told ("Yesterday's Enterprise", "Best of Both Worlds", etc).

With TOS, it was different. The movies then were about relaunching a canceled series that had been vindicated, the TNG movies were just about money-making.

Um...yes....Paramount certainly didnt want to make STTMP, STII, III for making money. Nope. They just wanted to make fans happy....yesirree

RAMA

Yeah, yeah, that really didn't come out right.

What I meant was that (yes) it was for the money but the TOS movies also revived what was a dead franchise at the same time and expanded the universe a bit too, made the character more 3-dimensional, etc. At the same time making money of course.

The TNG movies though, well there really was no need for them but I can see why they did them. Would have been nicer if they'd bother putting real money into them instead of making them on the cheap though.

Well there was no need for the TOS movies either, but they did well enough (financially) to make more. STNG movies did better (worldwide BO) than the first run TOS movies at first. With Nemesis, Paramount finally went over "pattern" and gave them $80 million to work with, and I think it translated to the screen. If you want to talk about demand for ST period...then it was time for the old (and old looking TOS crew) to get off the big screen, and for the popular STNG crew to replace them. There really was no other choice if the franchise was to continue.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

There really was no other choice if the franchise was to continue.

RAMA

I really disagree with this. Paramount badly mismanaged the franchise in the 90's and early 2000's.

As Star Trek 2009 has shown, there were other choices that could have been made.

 

[RAMA]

You've got the right word, there - consistent. The thing about TNG is that, even as the episodes rise and fall in quality, there is always, consistently, an extremely competent level of production that includes acting, writing, directing, and pacing.

This is what is called "bland". This is a show that quit taking chances as Paramount had one eye looking towards the big screen.

I'm a huge The Next Generation fan... but by the time we get to seasons five, six and seven there is a general lack of interesting ideas being presented.

Seasons 3, 4, and 6 to me were the best seasons, but even season 5 for me had 11 4-star episodes. I think when we talk about quality its extremely relative. Season 6 to me really took STNG to a popular height, with very consistent stories in the midpart of t he season..and YES some very good ideas (The Chase...one of THE best ST tales ever, Schisms, Relics, Chain of Command, Tapestry, Birthright Pt I, Frame of Mind, Timescape). These were high concept, provocative, and involved lots of exploration of character's history in a way the previous ST series could only have dreampt of in its short life.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

There really was no other choice if the franchise was to continue.

RAMA

I really disagree with this. Paramount badly mismanaged the franchise in the 90's and early 2000's.

As Star Trek 2009 has shown, there were other choices that could have been made.

You're not thinking this through at all...STNG set records...it was popular, the energy of the TOS movies was gone. STNG movies did well when it was new (GEN) and when it was tried to be big(STFC). The only thing mismanged with the movies is they needed to think MOVIE-like instead of tv. Insurrection and Nemesis (which i like) were not able to appeal to non-ST audiences. They expanded no territory, didnt think large scale. Fast-forward to ST09...and we have something to compare both the latter TOS movies and STNG movies to. It literally blows the other movies away in setting, concept and execution. There was nothing wrong with STNG thematically, only creatively. I think what ST needed then was new blood, and simply hiring a writer and director with the same producers was not enough.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

"Tapestry" ***

Near death Picard is given a chance to change the course of his life.

I remember liking this more. When I first saw it I was quite taken with the idea, but not it seems rather ordinary. Much of the script seem almost rubber stamped and predictable. It isn't horrible, but it isn't anything special either. I still like the idea of the story, but part of what takes me out of it is seeing Patrick Stewart playing his younger self---it just doesn't really work for me.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I've never seen what was so great about Tapestry myself. It is okay but I was never interested in his time at the Academy or seeing him get knifed by a Nausicaan. One thing I never cared for was when Picard/Stewart was paired romantically with a younger actress--it was part of why I wasn't interested in The Perfect Mate--and I wasn't wild about it here. Q was a bit much as well.

A lot of the material was well worn like the wild youth, getting into it with surly individuals and the "what if...". It might have been more interesting had the writers not tipped their hands by showing Q was behind it from the start. Although I'll admit I'm not sure there was much else they could have done to perk the script up. I also prefer when the other cast is involved.

I'd give it just 2.5 stars out of 4. Much like Family and Darmok this one is a bit overrated.

 

[Ubik]

"Tapestry" ***

Near death Picard is given a chance to change the course of his life.

I remember liking this more. When I first saw it I was quite taken with the idea, but not it seems rather ordinary. Much of the script seem almost rubber stamped and predictable. It isn't horrible, but it isn't anything special either. I still like the idea of the story, but part of what takes me out of it is seeing Patrick Stewart playing his younger self---it just doesn't really work for me.

Bah. You lost me.

This episode, by the way, is miles ahead of anything TOS ever did. Sorry, but it so clearly is.

 

[Warped9]

"Tapestry" ***

Near death Picard is given a chance to change the course of his life.

I remember liking this more. When I first saw it I was quite taken with the idea, but not it seems rather ordinary. Much of the script seem almost rubber stamped and predictable. It isn't horrible, but it isn't anything special either. I still like the idea of the story, but part of what takes me out of it is seeing Patrick Stewart playing his younger self---it just doesn't really work for me.

Bah. You lost me.

This episode, by the way, is miles ahead of anything TOS ever did. Sorry, but it so clearly is.

No, it isn't, not by any standard. That's just your opinion just as mine is mine.

The simple fact is that while you evidently are quite fond of Seasons 5 and 6 episodes I'm finding the majority of these seasons to be eminently forgettable. At this point I can say with some certainty that TNG's best has come and gone. After Season 4 it's mostly a slide into mediocrity.

 

[startrekwatcher]

The problem with TNG at this stage is it is showing its age. I love TNG but the next few episodes aren't that great-Birthright a two parter really?. It also didn't help that DS9 was trying to get going.

 

[RAMA]

The problem with TNG at this stage is it is showing its age. I love TNG but the next few episodes aren't that great-Birthright a two parter really?. It also didn't help that DS9 was trying to get going.

Loved Birthright, one of the greatest sequences on TV ever to me was Data's dream sequence. I thought they did a fantastic job...a 2-parter with some wonderful sci-fi (the android developing its sentience/personality) and character building, followed by a 2nd part (although weaker)developing Worf. The Rom-Klingon plot, can't get much more Trek-like than that..Dorn also did some of his best work there.

Wasn't showing age yet, stories still quality, gaining award nominations, audience levels ever-increasing. STNG season 7 on the other hand...mixed bag.

RAMA

 

[Ghrakh]

This episode, by the way, is miles ahead of anything TOS ever did. Sorry, but it so clearly is.

Agreed. Something about "Tapestry" just resonated with me on an emotional level.

This is among my favorite episodes in all of Trek, and definitely my favorite Q episode.

 

[startrekwatcher]

The problem with TNG at this stage is it is showing its age. I love TNG but the next few episodes aren't that great-Birthright a two parter really?. It also didn't help that DS9 was trying to get going.

Loved Birthright, one of the greatest sequences on TV ever to me was Data's dream sequence. I thought they did a fantastic job...a 2-parter with some wonderful sci-fi (the android developing its sentience/personality)

Data was already sentient I don't see how a dream program changes that. Yes the dream sequence was visually evocative but not enough to justify the pretty routine investigating into what happened to Data that preceded it during the first 3/4 of the hour.

Birthright just didn't justify being a two parter. Bashir and DS9 were gratuitous and added nothing, Worf's outbursts were getting tiresome by now so another hissy fit did nothing for me, we didn't even get to meet Mogh instead the writers pulled a bait-and switch turning the story into a well worn enemies living together with a forced "romance" with B'ael and Worf that couldn't be anymore tedious and lacking chemistry. And by this stage I was tired of Klingon stories with the whole honor routine and chest thumping bits so what do we get a whole hour that was essentially "My Life as a Klingon". And worse yet the rest of the cast in the second hour were pretty much MIA.

Sure there will be decent episodes over the next season and a half(Timescape, The Chase, Starship Mine, Descent, Parallels, Genesis, All Good Things" but the consistency is not there and the spark that marked the heyday of the series was definitely missing at times.

 

[BillJ]

"Tapestry" ***

Near death Picard is given a chance to change the course of his life.

I remember liking this more. When I first saw it I was quite taken with the idea, but not it seems rather ordinary. Much of the script seem almost rubber stamped and predictable. It isn't horrible, but it isn't anything special either. I still like the idea of the story, but part of what takes me out of it is seeing Patrick Stewart playing his younger self---it just doesn't really work for me.

Bah. You lost me.

This episode, by the way, is miles ahead of anything TOS ever did. Sorry, but it so clearly is.

Tapestry, really?

Now if you had replaced the mentioned episode with The Best of Both Worlds or The Drumhead, you might have had an argument.

Tapestry uses to much in the way of elements (uninteresting and overused) from earlier episodes to feel like anything more than filler and uninteresting filler at that.

Like most of seasons 6 and 7, Tapestry is something I'll probably never revisit again.

I thought Warped9 was kind to this episode.

 

[Ubik]

"Tapestry" ***

Near death Picard is given a chance to change the course of his life.

I remember liking this more. When I first saw it I was quite taken with the idea, but not it seems rather ordinary. Much of the script seem almost rubber stamped and predictable. It isn't horrible, but it isn't anything special either. I still like the idea of the story, but part of what takes me out of it is seeing Patrick Stewart playing his younger self---it just doesn't really work for me.

Bah. You lost me.

This episode, by the way, is miles ahead of anything TOS ever did. Sorry, but it so clearly is.

Tapestry, really?

Now if you had replaced the mentioned episode with The Best of Both Worlds or The Drumhead, you might have had an argument.

Oh, my statement applies to both The Drumhead and Best of Both Worlds as well.

 

[Warped9]

To each his own.

 

[lurok]

^just wanted to say thanks again for your reviews as really enjoying them and largely agree (just got to start of s6 on my own first all-TNG viewing). Actually had a bit shock when realised had seen a few eps before. Not sure how or why forgotten...possibly caught on re-run? When I've been in States for work, usually find one of the many channels is usually showing a Trek ep, often late at night, so maybe caught then Only episodes that really stuck out as uniquely distinctive for me were Darmok and The Outcast , maybe because both trying something challenging in true Trek spirit. I know The Outcast gets a lot of flak, especially seen through prism of today's society, and it's obvious and doesn't have true courage of its convictions, but in overall context of Trek I still think it was 'noble' attempt (even if failed)

 

[Ubik]

To each his own.

Man, you're just impossible to pick a fight with, aren't you?

 

[Anwar]

Except when he posts stuff that imply that anyone who enjoyed Trek beyond 1979 isn't a Trek fan.