When she says Jeri in a catsuit appeals to the lowest common denominator.
Plus at one point in her career, Mulgrew was that young new actress stepping into another older actresses spot light.
Poor Jeri Ryan
- Thread starter Jaespol
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Plus at one point in her career, Mulgrew was that young new actress stepping into another older actresses spot light.
Exodus...that's criticizing the costume. Heck, I like the character Seven and the actor Jeri Ryan and I don't like the catsuit either. Lots of people right here on the BBS like the character and don't like the costume, just as lots of people love TOS but wish they didn't put almost all the women in those microminis and lots of people like Deanna on TNG but think her character should have always been in uniform instead of in those skin-tight outfits she wore during the early seasons. Liking character and liking the costume are two separate issues.
I'm not being sarcastic here: Is this really that hard to understand? Am I just not explaining it right or to you, is the character and the costume one and the same?
And yes, of course Mulgrew was the young one once. For that matter, Jeri Ryan is no longer the young actress either - she still looks gorgeous and not anywhere near her age, but she, too, will someday get past the "hot young woman" stage. That it happened before and will probably happen again doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it Ryan's fault, of course. There should be roles in movies and TV for women who aren't young any more but who still can act, but there simply aren't that many.
I'm not being sarcastic here: Is this really that hard to understand? Am I just not explaining it right or to you, is the character and the costume one and the same?
And yes, of course Mulgrew was the young one once. For that matter, Jeri Ryan is no longer the young actress either - she still looks gorgeous and not anywhere near her age, but she, too, will someday get past the "hot young woman" stage. That it happened before and will probably happen again doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it Ryan's fault, of course. There should be roles in movies and TV for women who aren't young any more but who still can act, but there simply aren't that many.
Bingo!
The funny thing is, as a woman Mulgrew's age with friends in the business and facing the same competition from younger actresses, I felt her pain. As a matter of fact, I'd given up on Voyager as boring, boring, boring during season 3 (my sweetie had a weekly gig that night and it was far more entertaining to go listen to a set list I'd memorized by that point than go home and fall asleep at new Voyager episodes....
). But when they announced the new babe, I caught up during reruns and tuned in to watch--in solidarity with my "aging" friends--the blonde bimbo crash and burn.She proved me wrong. And made me think why I had these preconceived notions.
Jeri has said that one thing that truly irritates her is people assuming she's less intelligent than she is (this is a woman whose second-choice of career was biomedical engineering) because of what she looks like.
I'd been making those sorts of judgements.
And every time Kate commented on Jeri appealing to the "lowest common denominator," she made judgements not only about Jeri but about her fans.
Jaespol said:NCC-1701 said:He worked on the frikkin show. If you can't put all the pieces together then there's little hope left for you in this world I'm afraid
That doesn't mean he can't be exaggerating or lying or misinterpreting or joking or whatever. Just because he worked on the show doesn't mean he's reliable. The point is, we can all believe what we want. But in reality, we just don't know.
I can see that I can't do much here - NCC has it exactly right, and I doubt that I can do any better. But I'll try once more.
That Garret Wang worked on the show means one thing: He was there. That's great as far as it goes - it's better than hearsay. But all it means is that he was there.
Have you never, Jaespol, had a friend, family member or co-worker who, while not meaning to deceive, sometimes exaggerates or misinterprets? Who doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good story? Who is reliable when talking about somebody she likes but completely unreliable when talking about somebody she dislikes? (Such as my mother-in-law, for example.
) Who starts out having a fairly reliable memory of something but that memory gets less accurate the longer ago that something occurred?And then there are other friends, family members and co-workers whose stories are invariably as truthful as they know how to make them.
We don't know Garret Wang, and therefore, we don't know what kind of story teller he is. He was there. That's good. That doesn't mean he is reliable, nor does it mean he is unreliable; it doesn't mean he doesn't exaggerate when it will make a better story nor does it mean that he would never, ever exaggerate to make a better story. It means one thing: He was there. That's all we know.
If that's enough for you, fine. You at least have eye-witness testimony to bolster your opinion. But I've known too many people who are lousy eye witnesses. I'm not saying Wang is one of them. I am simply agreeing with NCC that we just don't know. All we can do is guess.
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We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't think Jeri appealed to the lowest common denominator, but I do think that's what her costume was intended to do. She was great - Seven is a fabulous character - but the costume was not designed to show off her intelligence or her versatility as an actor. It was designed to appeal to people who like to look at women's bodies. How is that not the "lowest common denominator"? If she didn't appeal to you for that reason, if you didn't watch her for the catsuit, which I am fairly sure you did not, then I am a bit puzzled as to why you lump yourself into that lowest common denominator. I know I didn't watch her because of the catsuit. I watched her because she was really, really good.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Just because Mulgrew said they didn't gel doesn't explicitly mean she was a total bitch to Jeri 100% of the time either. Just because you don't like someone you work with doesn't mean you have to be rude to them, but it almost certainly implies that you won't be chummy with them. I think that's the whole point - what we're going by is extrapolation and hearsay. Even from Wang.
And I don't really see Kate Mulgrew as having self image problems either. I could way more easily see her as a diva who thinks she didn't get her due rather than some needy little person saying "Pay attention to meeeeeee!" I'm not saying that being a diva is nicer
That was along the lines I saw it too. But of course, that doesn't preclude Kate being a bitch to Jeri, either.
And while I certainly agree that Jeri is more than she appears to be, I also tend to agree that stuffing an attractive woman in a catsuit, in and of itself, reeks of appealing to base male instincts and demographics. But I don't think anyone here would deny that both Seven and Jeri (and people in general) are more than they appear.
Jaespol said:NCC-1701 said:He worked on the frikkin show. If you can't put all the pieces together then there's little hope left for you in this world I'm afraid
That doesn't mean he can't be exaggerating or lying or misinterpreting or joking or whatever. Just because he worked on the show doesn't mean he's reliable. The point is, we can all believe what we want. But in reality, we just don't know.
I can see that I can't do much here - NCC has it exactly right, and I doubt that I can do any better. But I'll try once more.
That Garret Want worked on the show means one thing: He was there. That's great as far as it goes - it's better than hearsay. But all it means is that he was there.
Have you never, Jaespol, had a friend, family member or co-worker who, while not meaning to deceive, sometimes exaggerates or misinterprets? Who doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good story? Who is reliable when talking about somebody she likes but completely unreliable when talking about somebody she dislikes? (Such as my mother-in-law, for example.
And then there are other friends, family members and co-workers whose stories are invariably as truthful as they know how to make them.
We don't know Garret Wang, and therefore, we don't know what kind of story teller he is. He was there. That's good. That doesn't mean he is reliable, nor does it mean he is unreliable; it doesn't mean he doesn't exaggerate when it will make a better story nor does it mean that he would never, ever exaggerate to make a better story. It means one thing: He was there. That's all we know.
If that's enough for you, fine. You at least have eye-witness testimony to bolster your opinion. But I've known too many people who are lousy eye witnesses. I'm not saying Wang is one of them. I am simply agreeing with NCC that we just don't know. All we can do is guess.
Very well said. Like I touched on earlier, we just don't know. We have a few statements that have some overlap. I'd like to hear Jeri's side of it, but I have a feeling Jeri would rather not talk deeply about it.
Given that the business I'm building is fashion ( I design custom handknits with 1930s silhouettes--in other words, body conscious), perhaps I *am* the lowest common denominator.
I see nothing wrong with celebrating a woman's body.
^ Interesting theory, but...no, you're not. If you were, the main reason you would have watched her is to "celebrate" her body. And you didn't. Did you?
I like to think that many of the people who originally watched her just because of her appearance got past that and realized, as you did, that she is a heck of an actress as well. But the catsuit doesn't make any statement about her acting ability.
Ooh, 1930s-styled knits. Coooool!
I like to think that many of the people who originally watched her just because of her appearance got past that and realized, as you did, that she is a heck of an actress as well. But the catsuit doesn't make any statement about her acting ability.
Ooh, 1930s-styled knits. Coooool!
Talking specifically about the catsuit, I think this isn't talking about the fans, I think it's talking about the new viewers UPN was hoping to bring in. The trek faithful fans had been there since the start, they were losing them slowly but steadily, then the change they made was very flashy and gimmicky, but it was a change to help demographics, not the series.
The same problem happened in the first two years of Enterprise, dumbing it down below standard trek standards, not going for something new and interesting. Season 4 of Ent is so highly regarded because it was really trying to make the connection back to Trek. I really think Seven is where they started to try to distance themselves from Trek.
Neither do I.
Even by religious standards your body is a temple & a great gift given to us. Artists such as Micheleangelo & DiVinci saw the human body as a form of art and went to great lenghts to paint it accurately.
People go to gyms & eat right not only to be healthy but to have good in shape bodies. Anybody that would think the baeuty of the human body appeals to the lowest common demominator IMO is greatly insulting any athlete, sports figure, actor & actress
or model in or out of the business.
The catsuit is also a metaphor for things of beauty that would never have been discovered if she had remained Borg. Then like Icheb, you have to then wonder how many other things of beauty & intelligence the Borg have taken & corrupted. The suit was more than just to grab a new audience, it had meaning.
Jaespol
Captain
Looking at it clearly, it was designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator - horny men.
There weren't many new women fans tuning in to Voyager to admire the wonderful shape of Jeri Ryan (this is proven by the demographics), it was teenagers and young guys tuning in to jack off to her.
That my friend is the lowest common denominator.
Besides, the ratings barely increased by the arrival of Jeri Ryan, a few episodes got extra viewers (mainly because they were big event episodes) but seasons 5-7 did worse than seasons 1-3.
There weren't many new women fans tuning in to Voyager to admire the wonderful shape of Jeri Ryan (this is proven by the demographics), it was teenagers and young guys tuning in to jack off to her.
That my friend is the lowest common denominator.
Besides, the ratings barely increased by the arrival of Jeri Ryan, a few episodes got extra viewers (mainly because they were big event episodes) but seasons 5-7 did worse than seasons 1-3.
No, there weren't many new women fans tuning in to Voyager to admire Jeri's wonderful shape.
There were, however, women fans who tuned in to admire Jeri's wonderful performance.
Or don't we count?
If the ratings didn't increase, then nobody was tuning in to jack off to her either.
Lasting long enough to achieve syndication rights is ususally the goal of most shows. Voyager did and continued beyond that. Seven helped sell merchendise & along with Voyager launched the Las Vegas Experance. So Seven's image did for Paramount just what they needed it to do, it made them money.
Jaespol
Captain
That's irrelevant, way to confuse the discussion. We're talking about people tuning into see her body...the fact it was mostly young guys (as proven by the increase in that demographic group tuning in) shows it was most likely horny guys tuning in to jack off rather than people tuning into admire the female form and paint it for their art class.
People in this forum can be so obtuse!
The topic of the thread, last time I checked was the way Kate treated Jeri on set and whether or not it was justified. I suppose if you consider Jeri simply something to jack off to, then you could say it was justified, right?
And, no, I'm not obtuse.
Well said, LeadHead. I tend to agree - except that I think that in Seven they gave us a character who was more than she seemed to be. However, I do agree that perhaps Seven was the first obvious symbol of the network's 'demands' and this decline trend. This was the first attempt at defibrilation for the franchise.
Jaespol, you've managed to insult the intelligence of other posters twice in one thread here. Time to take a breather.
Warning for flaming. Comments to pm.
If you can't put all the pieces together then there's little hope left for you in this world I'm afraid
Warning for flaming. Comments to pm.
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