Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Continuing Arc

[chrisspringob]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha-

What's your timeframe (and your expected viewing order) for the other TV movies, Crusade, and the other novels? Are you going to try to get through all of it by the time The Lost Tales comes out?

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I'm definitely trying to finish up before The Lost Tales, which I have on pre-order. I ordered the novels I couldn't get from the library, along with the movies and Crusade, so they should be here any day now. I still have a number of season five episodes left to watch, plus the third Legions of Fire book to read between now and then as well.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Speaking of Crusade and the movies, I'm looking at this intended order. I know the uniform thing is a bitch with Crusade, and I don't care about it. I'm looking for the strongest continuity of character (and even if War Zone is awful, it has to be first...if this were a longer running series I might feel different, but there are only 13 episodes and they cost me 30 bucks, so I'm not about to get on JMS' boat and imagine away things that aren't the greatest).

MOVIE River of Souls
LOTR Legend of the Rangers
MOVIE Call to Arms
Cx01 War Zone
Cx09 Racing the Night
Cx10 The Memory of War
Cx11 The Needs of Earth
Cx12 Visitors from Down the Street
Cx07 The Rules of the Game
Cx13 Each Night I Dream of Home
Cx02 The Long Road
Cx03 The Well of Forever
Cx04 The Path of Sorrows
Cx05 Patters of the Soul
Cx06 Ruling the Tomb
Cx08 Appearances and Other Deceits

I haven't decided if I want to see In The Beginning in between Objects at Rest and Sleeping in Light as I originally intended, or hold off on it until after Crusade. Thoughts?

 

[chrisspringob]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Why would "The Rules of the Game" come before "Each Night I Dream of Home"? That doesn't make any sense. "The Rules of the Game" should definitely be the last of the three Lochley episodes you watch (after ENIDoH and "Ruling From the Tomb"). Continuity-wise, I think RFtT would have to be first of those three, as, IIRC, Lochley is meeting Gideon for the first time there. So if you don't care about the uniforms changing back and forth, flip RFtT with TRotG in your order.

Also, while it can work either way in terms of story and characterization, I prefer spreading out the Galen-heavy episodes "The Long Road", "The Well of Forever", and "The Path of Sorrows" a little more, so ideally, I'd at least move Path of Sorrows back an episode or two later in the order, though it's not a big deal.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
Honestly, I have no idea as to the origin of that order now. Its based on the "chronological order" that appears at the Lurker's guide, as well as a suggestion or two from many, many pages back on this very thread.

(The Chronological Order)

War Zone
Racing the Night
The Memory of War
The Needs of Earth
Visitors from Down the Street
Each Night I Dream of Home
The Long Road
The Well of Forever
The Path of Sorrows
Patterns of the Soul
Ruling from the Tomb
The Rules of the Game
Appearances and Other Deceits

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"A Tragedy of Telepaths" / "Phoenix Rising"

These two are take place in such a short time that they are practically one episode, although I find them to be of significantly varying quality. "Tragedy" is by far the better installment, made better by the return of Bester and the counterpoint of the story taking place on Centauri Prime. Like I said before, I dislike the telepath arc (which is a failure for most of its run), but it works in "Tragedy." Byron is without any sweepingly bad monologues, and no one is describing him as something he's not.

Grade: A

"Phoenix" is far less successful with the conclusion of this arc, which is merely okay after the improvement of the past two episodes. In the end, Byron returns to his overwritten and overacted ways, reminding us of his painful "willow" speech from episodes' past. There's also the singing at the end, which is just stupid--not to mention the fact that Bester doesn't just shoot Byron so as to prevent the telepaths from martyring themselves. Byron somehow makes it out of his fortress down below, moving at what JMS would undoubtedly call the "speed of plot." There's no way he gets out of there--Lochley had a hard enough time getting in there in the last episode when Byron bid her farewell (another nice scene in Tragedy). And then, there's the hostage crisis, reusing footage from "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars." I never buy the danger of the hostage crisis. Even BSG's "Sacrifice," for all its flaws, put our characters in a sense of actual risk (and even killed one). In this episode, we have Garibaldi and Franklin (who of course won't die) and a bunch of non-speaking extras. Meh.

Garibaldi does have some great stuff in this episode, though, first with his confrontation with Bester, and second with the end of the episode.

Grade: B

 

[chrisspringob]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
^^
Honestly, I have no idea as to the origin of that order now. Its based on the "chronological order" that appears at the Lurker's guide, as well as a suggestion or two from many, many pages back on this very thread.

(The Chronological Order)

War Zone
Racing the Night
The Memory of War
The Needs of Earth
Visitors from Down the Street
Each Night I Dream of Home
The Long Road
The Well of Forever
The Path of Sorrows
Patterns of the Soul
Ruling from the Tomb
The Rules of the Game
Appearances and Other Deceits

From a character development standpoint, that order is fine, though you could move around various episodes here and there, and you wouldn't notice. From a plot continuity standpoint, it doesn't quite make sense, because (IIRC, and it's been a few years, so I might be misremembering the scene) Gideon and Lochley are introduced in "Ruling from the Tomb", which you have after "Each Night I Dream of Home" (another Lochley ep). However, the problem is that character development-wise, the Max of "Ruling from the Tomb" seems more like the Max of later episodes, so it feels weird to pull that episode too far back in the order.

If you want to keep the character development flow intact, but sacrifice plot consistency, then you could just leave the order like that. However, if I were you, I would flip "The Path of Sorrows" with "Ruling from the Tomb", just because 1) It eliminates the plot problem of why you have back to back Lochley eps ("Ruling from the Tomb" & "The Rules of the Game") with absolutely no mention of the former in the latter, 2) it spreads out the Galen-heavy eps more, as I suggested in my earlier post, and 3) it spreads out the Max-heavy eps more.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
That sounds like a plan. If no one else objects to what you've graciously been able to recollect, I'll be following that order with the changes you've suggested, chrisspringob. Thanks for the advice. :thumbsup:

 

[chrisspringob]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

No problem. I'm betting that if a few other people chime in, at least one of them will argue in favor of using JMS's prefered order because "that's what JMS intended". But JMS's order has a bunch of problems as well (like why is War Zone near the end, why are "Ruling" and "Rules" back to back with no mention of the one in the other), and there is no order that preserves both continuity and character development.

Also, the whole idea of "what JMS intended" is messed up by the fact that TNT mandated changes to episodes that affect what order things make sense in, and JMS knew that the order was being tampered with as the episodes were being produced, so it gets a bit silly. Add to that the fact that when SFC asked JMS for his intended order, he makes it sound as though he was trying to remember it off the top of his head while on the phone:

http://worldsofjms.com/usenet/post/010320a.htm

so it's hard to justify treating that order as gospel.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"The Ragged Edge"

Thankfully the Telepath story has been left behind (at least as of this episode), and things immediatly begin to pick up. Sheridan struggles to keep the Alliance together, but the random attacks are making his job difficult. G'Kar returns to discover he has become a religious leader in his absence. Michael travels to the Drazi Homeworld in search of a smuggler who may have information on the recent attacks. Unfortunately, his alcoholism that emerged after the previous episode prevents him from doing his job. He barely escapes with his life, and a button off one of his attackers. The button turns out to be Centauri in origin, and the Advisory Board (minus Londo) realize that Londo cannot be trusted. Finally, Franklin receives word from Earth Dome and Doctor Kyle--there's a promotion waiting for him at Earth at the end of the year. Franklin takes it. Christopher Franke's music shines throughout, a nice counterpoint to the mostly forgettable music that has characterized the telepaths previously in the season.

If there's anything not to like about this episode, it's one of two things. First, there's the incredibly fake looking balcony on the Drazi Homeworld which shouts "cheap!" Secondly, there's the opportunity lost to see Dr. Kyle one last time, when he speaks to Franklin. It's nice to have a little more of Kyle's backstory filled out after the fact, but it surely would be nice if, in the final season, we could have said goodbye to his character which we barely knew. Ah... useless fanwank, I know.

Grade: A

 

[chrisspringob]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Did you skip Day of the Dead?

Also, Hirogen, the discussion of Crusade and the novels has reminded me of a huge debate on the moderated B5 newsgroup that took place years ago about whether the Technomage backstory detailed in the Technomage books is a huge retcon that revises what JMS actually had in mind when he was writing B5 and Crusade. Cavelos herself acknowledged that she changed some things around from JMS's original outline in order to make it fit better with the story she wanted to tell. Of course, she did so with JMS's blessing, so the novels are canon, but still, it's interesting to piece together what JMS might have intended when he was writing the show, and compare with what the backstory eventually became when the novels were written.

Anyway, I bring this up because I was able to track down some of those old messages from Usenet that debate this issue, so after you've watched Crusade and read the Technomage books, remind me to post them here. I won't do so now because they contain huge spoilers for the books and Crusade, but remind me to do it when you get that far. (I'm about to go out of town for about two weeks, and will likely not be logging in while I'm gone, but I assume you're not going to be plowing through all that stuff in just two weeks.)

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I'm watching that episode (Day of the Dead) next, which I had mixed feelings about last time I saw it.

And I look foward to reading those posts, though I imagine I won't be able to plow through those episodes (and books) in just two weeks. Hell, Crusade and the Movie Collection haven't even arrived, though they should be coming in the mail soon. And it doesn't help that I'm trying to watch Rescue Me, Sliders, and the X-Files all at the same time. And that whole job thing, too, but I'm such a zombie there I don't really count it.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Legions of Fire: Out of the Darkness

Everything comes together in the conclusion of this trilogy. I've heard some complain that it doesn't end in an all out confrontation between the Drakh and the Alliance, but I don't think the story was ever headed in that direction nor do I think it should have been.

Vir really comes into his own in this novel. I'm almost a little pissed at JMS, because as much as I loved reading about this in novel form, I wish we had gotten to see it on screen, perhaps instead of the telepath arc or one of the lesser movies (which, admittedly, I haven't seen yet, but haven't heard the best things about). But, these books are so great, that I'm willing to forgive him for not translating them to the screen.

Not that this book is perfect, however. Like the previous two installments, it was just on the verge of an A or an A+ grade, but a few things knock it down to an A-. First, there's David (who at least gets a description in this book--in book two it was hard to imagine the character at all based on David's elusive description of him) whose story mostly works for a character we're only really introduced to in this book. I'm not so sure about the ending, though. We've spent so long reading of Londo's suffering at the hands of the keeper, knowing he was doomed to be stuck with it until his death. Now we're told that all Londo would have had to do was kill Shiv'kala? I don't know about that. Still, Garibaldi's "What's up, Drakh?" is an absolute classic.

Speaking of Garibaldi, I'm still left with confusion over the way his relationship with Sheridan is characterized in Sleeping in Light. There's a sense of real hostility between the two (or at least, that there was in the past) in that episode (Franklin asks Garibaldi if he really wants to see Sheridan). Yet I don't see shades of that here. If anything, Garibaldi and Sheridan seem to be closer in this book than in the series.

Other things come together with perfect symmetry: Durla's ultimate rise and (literal) fall is a wonderful arc, as are those of Mariel and Timov. G'kar and Londo's final moments are incredibly sad and powerful at the same time. You know what is going to happen but are still drawn to the words at an amazing pace.

Grade: A-

----

I'm still finishing season five of Babylon 5, but I'll ask again for any other input: What's the best viewing order of Crusade?

Also, I had asked about Lyta/G'kar and the telepath war back when I read book two of LOF. There were a few answers, but I'm still left wondering about it. Also, I'm still left wondering if G'Kar's reference to Lyta in the present tense was an error or not in book two. I hope The Lost Tales can eventually provide continuity snobs such as me with some sort of resolution with the issue.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

...Bueller? Bueller?

"Day of the Dead"

I thought this episode was pretty good. The positives:

Londo, G'Kar, Lochley, Rebo and Zooty, Delenn, Sheridan all have great stuff to do in this episode.

I'm not so sure about Lennier and Morden, though. Lennier hardly knows Morden, and Morden is the only one who show any sort of knowledge beyond death. That doesn't seem to fit with the other resurrected characters who don't know anything post-death. Like many others, I imagine, I wonder why it wasn't Marcus who returned to Lennier.

The other thing that I'm not sure about was Kosh's message. It just doesn't seem to fit in with the episode that Kosh would have a moment to visit Lochley. She seems to spend the entire Day of the Dead with Zoe, and we see it end. I know its something that JMS wanted to drop in and not something the writer of this episode came up with--maybe that's why it seems a little awkward.

Grade: B+

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"The Corp is Mother, The Corp is Father"

I love the character of Bester--I wish JMS had done more with him and Sheridan working together during the Shadow War. His character is evil, yet even with the black gloves he's actions are never black nor white. I especially like the moment in the end when he admits to the Psi Cop intern that he just doesn't know anymore about what he does, just for a second. In many ways, this episode is all set-up for the telepath war. We see the inner workings of the Psi Corp. We see that there's a subtle divide within, characterized between the different ways the two interns act. The telepath war is shaping up to be not a war between telepaths and normals, but a civil war between telepaths themselves. We see that the Psi Corp has hidden a growing fleet in hyper-space, and has been hiding internal conflict (as best they can) as well.

I wish the earlier telepath arc had been shortened and we had gotten to this episode sooner. Instead, it's a nice standalone that leaves us waiting for something more. Fingers crossed for the Lost Tales.

Grade: A

 

[Jonz]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hey Hirogen

I was wondering what you was making of season 5, so far on this viewing.

I am up to "Objects at Rest" and actually found i really love this season. Back in the days when it aired (actually i bought it on VHS tape - never aired in Denmark - it was a monthly ritual getting those tapes and watching with a frien) I remembered hating season 5.

But i guess that was the sheer frantic pacing of season 3 and 4 that promoted that reaction in me. Now on a second viewing i feel everything suddenly makes sense. This season feels like a quiet epilogue - and i love every bit of it. (I even hummed Byrons stupid song for a day - yikes).

To be sure it is not perfect. The telepath arc, while not horrible, is not very good either.

Regarding the two episodes:
"Day of the Dead" - i still love this episode. And even more on the second viewing. It ranks an 'A' for me (going by your system).

"The Corp is Mother, The Corp is Father" i did not like too much on first viewing. On second viewing it is better though. I like seeing the hostility towards telepaths on Babylon 5 the other way around - in the eyes of the telepaths. And that ending always creeps me out... I would say an A-

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I'm hoping to crank out much more of the season this afternoon/evening.

This is my second viewing of season five, but it's not as easy for me to say that I like it more/less than the first time. There are some episodes which I've found more enjoyable this outing (like The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari) and some that I've enjoyed less (No Compromises).

I'm heading towards the final arc now, so it should be a pretty good run till the end (although there are some things concerning Lyta and Lennier that I significantly objected to the first time 'round).

Do you have any comments for the rest of the season? Feel free to share them (Since I've already seen everything before, no worries about spoilers here).

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"Meditations on the Abyss" and "Darkness Ascending"

Finally the dramatic fall of Londo and Centauri Prime is fully underway, and other subplots continue to move towards their conclusion. Lyta finally gets the money for a telepath colony by bargaining with G'Kar. Why didn't she (and Byron) do this in the first place? Completely non-violent, and it would have meant an end to Byron's painful speeches. Lennier is on a secret mission for Delenn and the alliance (and his training here renders the episode "Learning Curve" even more obsolete than it was before--where the Rangers in that episode were cliched and not that exciting, the rangers here are interesting and well acted--even Lennier's human commander strikes me as a character that would have been nice to have around on a Legend of the Rangers spinoff type show). And it's nice to see Lise back, helping to explain away Garibaldi's absence from Mars with some good old fashioned anger.

Grade: A & A

"And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder"

This is the best arc-based episode of season five thus far, with some excellent work from the director and the actors. The shoe/gavel edit works wonders, and Sheridan's angry speech in the council chambers near the end is great--one of Boxleitner's finest performances. My only qualm (preventing this episode from earning A+ marks) is that Garibaldi gets away with being a drunk in this episode. He makes a colossal mistake, and Sheridan never once suspects why. Worse, Zack never tells him. Still, a phenomenal episode.

Grade: A

 

[Jan]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
The other thing that I'm not sure about was Kosh's message. It just doesn't seem to fit in with the episode that Kosh would have a moment to visit Lochley. She seems to spend the entire Day of the Dead with Zoe, and we see it end. I know its something that JMS wanted to drop in and not something the writer of this episode came up with--maybe that's why it seems a little awkward.

Kosh didn't visit Lochley. She got the message from Zoe who said she was given a message for her to give to Sheridan.

Jan

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
Interesting. Thanks, Jan. Did I just miss that detail, or is it something from the script books, or the lurker's guide?