Spoilers Moon Knight discussion

[Reverend]

As much fun as the time machine sky sequence* was, I'm pretty sure whatever astronomy software Layla was using would have been able to do that (because every piece of astronomy software I've ever seen or used can); all they needed was an approximate date, and well . . . carbon dating is a thing, so they should have at least a vague idea of how old the mummy was. Hell, by his own admission Khonshu can remember *every* night. Can he not count too? I mean it's simple arithmetic, no?

* Side note: what the hell even was that?! An illusion? Did the earth just get moved back in time, or was the entire universe spun it's previous configuration? The makers of this show know that there's really no such thing as "the sky" that can be altered the same way "the view out your window" isn't just a picture, right?! How has this not set off every alarm bell in the cosmos? This is the kind of thing galactic empires, celestials, and higher dimensional being are probably going to take issue with. Let's hope it's an illusion because otherwise that's a terrifying amount of cosmic power for an overgrown pigeon. I mean if he can do that, why does he need a mortal meat puppet that punches things?

 

[FPAlpha]

As much fun as the time machine sky sequence* was, I'm pretty sure whatever astronomy software Layla was using would have been able to do that (because every piece of astronomy software I've ever seen or used can); all they needed was an approximate date, and well . . . carbon dating is a thing, so they should have at least a vague idea of how old the mummy was. Hell, by his own admission Khonshu can remember *every* night. Can he not count too? I mean it's simple arithmetic, no?

* Side note: what the hell even was that?! An illusion? Did the earth just get moved back in time, or was the entire universe spun it's previous configuration? The makers of this show know that there's really no such thing as "the sky" that can be altered the same way "the view out your window" isn't just a picture, right?! How has this not set off every alarm bell in the cosmos? This is the kind of thing galactic empires, celestials, and higher dimensional being are probably going to take issue with. Let's hope it's an illusion because otherwise that's a terrifying amount of cosmic power for an overgrown pigeon. I mean if he can do that, why does he need a mortal meat puppet that punches things?

The entire show raises some interesting questionf for the MCU, chief amongst them if these deities are actually gods by our definition. The MCU went out of its way to explain the Asgardians as superadvanced aliens, whose technology seems like magic to us. Here Khonshu and the others are called gods and behave like them as if they actually are which is exactly like the comics portrayed them too.

Does this mean the MCU has completely shifted away from trying to ground all those superthings in an explainable way ( just extremely advanced tech)?

I don't have a problem either way with it, we are watching shows where people fly, can throw around cars or manipulate reality - gods are just another piece in that puzzle.

Anyway - yet another awesome episode that answers some of the questions while immediately creating new ones. Seems like there's a third character hiding in Marc's/Steven's body, possibly the one responsible for the bloody carnage in the first episode because as seen Marc is not bloodthirsty and fights the goons but doesn't actually kill them outright ( hilarious how he hesitated when striking that kid and then just slapped him to the ground or watched that guy posing and licking his blade only to punch him directly in his face while he did that ).

So it seems there will be a reveal coming of a third, hardcore character.

I loved the set design in this one - the marketplace was awesome, can't be easy to film this with so many extras but it looked fantastic and very realistic. The meeting room inside the Pyramid looked fantastic too and i loved the notion that every egyptian god had his/her own Avatar, that was a nice touch and expansion of the mythology.

Still 3 episodes to go and i can't wait.

 

[Kor]

^ I think it was mentioned somewhere (maybe earlier in this thread?) that this show is being treated as more of a standalone instead of having solid links with the rest of the MCU. So maybe that gives it more wiggle room when it comes to mythical stuff.

Kor

 

[Saul]

I like that there is another personality(s) that we haven't seen yet. The show is constantly feeling fresh with each episode.

 

[Reverend]

The entire show raises some interesting questionf for the MCU, chief amongst them if these deities are actually gods by our definition. The MCU went out of its way to explain the Asgardians as superadvanced aliens, whose technology seems like magic to us. Here Khonshu and the others are called gods and behave like them as if they actually are which is exactly like the comics portrayed them too.

I don't see any major shift here. They're still just another kind of alien; only an extra-dimensional one (for lack of a better term, since "dimension"≠"universe") That interfaces with our plane of reality in a way that functions more like metaphor, hence the anthropomorphic visage.
Less Arishem, more Dormammu.

Oh and as noted a few pages back; we already saw Bast, so it's not even breaking new ground when it comes to pantheons.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Of course, I sadly know the real world reason why this wasn't possible, but you would think that the Avatar of Bast would have been part of that little gathering.

 

[FPAlpha]

I don't see any major shift here. They're still just another kind of alien; only an extra-dimensional one (for lack of a better term, since "dimension"≠"universe") That interfaces with our plane of reality in a way that functions more like metaphor, hence the anthropomorphic visage.
Less Arishem, more Dormammu.

Oh and as noted a few pages back; we already saw Bast, so it's not even breaking new ground when it comes to pantheons.

Well, with the Asgardians they were careful to point out that they were not gods, just superadvanced aliens that live extremely long. I don't see this be adressed in any way so far so it stands out a bit.

Mind you, as i said i don't have a problem with that - we are dealing with the world of superhero comics and their adapations so anything goes and is valid. The show is fantastic and has some of the best acting in the MCU, Jason Isaacs just KILLS it in this role. Too bad he'll probably not get any recognition for it as awards like the Emmy and Golden Globes too often ignore good acting because it's Fantasy/Sci Fi ( with the exception of GoT, that was too hard to ignore).

 

[Reverend]

Of course, I sadly know the real world reason why this wasn't possible, but you would think that the Avatar of Bast would have been part of that little gathering.

I honestly don't think the person you're thinking of is the Avatar of Bast. I think those two roles may have been synonymous in the past, but not since the gods pulled back from human affairs.

Well, with the Asgardians they were careful to point out that they were not gods, just superadvanced aliens that live extremely long. I don't see this be adressed in any way so far so it stands out a bit.

When Odin died, he turned into sparkles. Thor is full of literal lightning and can survive a sun to the face. There's clearly more to them than longevity and scientific knowledge.

Mind you, as i said i don't have a problem with that - we are dealing with the world of superhero comics and their adapations so anything goes and is valid. The show is fantastic and has some of the best acting in the MCU, Jason Isaacs just KILLS it in this role. Too bad he'll probably not get any recognition for it as awards like the Emmy and Golden Globes too often ignore good acting because it's Fantasy/Sci Fi ( with the exception of GoT, that was too hard to ignore).

It all rather hinges on your definition of "god" though, doesn't it? In the paganist sense, a god is not all powerful or all knowing (that's more of a monotheistic thing), they're just WAY more powerful than mortals. Remember that a lot of these concepts came from a time where to world was a vast and chaotic place and the only way to impose some sense on all of it was to anthropomorphosis natural forces, because if they're just people ("gods") then suddenly the world becomes easier to relate to and comprehend all the random and weird shit that can happen to a bunch of hunter-gatherers out in the wild. This stuff predates what we generally think of as religion, it comes more from the realm of folklore and myth, which can be broadly summed up as "making up stories to make sense of the world".

Indeed in many mythologies the line between mortal and god gets very blurry, what with mortal heroes being apotheosized alongside the gods, Zeus shagging anything that moves and producing a litany of demi-god offspring (hell even the Hebrew Bible mentions nephilim!), gods dying, reproducing, or just popping out of thin air.

Also, like I said this particular pantheon that for whatever reason once set up shop in ancient Egypt aren't celestials or Clarke's Law aliens; instead like Dormammu they're beings from elsewhere in the multiverse that for whatever reason intersect with our universe at this particular junction of space-time. What they are is intrinsic to their very nature, it's not a product of technology or even genetic evolution. Their very nature is esoteric.

In short, "god" is not a state of being, it's a matter of perspective. So yes, to Odin, he and his people are not gods (though really what he meant is that they should not act like gods). But to humans, they may as well be. Ego, Arishem and the other celestials also fall into this category. To each other they're just beings; a part of the universe like everything else. But to us, they may as well be.

Think of it as an inversion of Sagan's "invisible dragon in the garage" thought experiment. If the measurable effects of a being that is purported not a god is quantifiably indistinguishable from the definition of such a god, then it may as well be counted as a god.

For example; a clear argument could be made for Carol Danvers having achieved "godhood since she wields incredible cosmic power, can bend the laws of physics to her will, and is seemingly both immortal and damn near indestructible. See Also: Wanda and Banner.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Surprised they didn’t do any stunt casting for the other Egyptian God avatars. I assume we will see Ra by the end.

I half expected stunt casting, too. Maybe Ra but I wouldn't be surprised if not at this point.

Besides, we already got F. Murray Abraham as Khonshu!

Be fun if they had Harrow faking Mandarin revealed later, revealing him as a ludicrous fraudster.

I actually think that would make it worse.

Hard to imagine a Disney/Marvel show not having the budget to have something in another language properly scripted and coached. I mean, Barbara Eden spoke actual Persian in the I Dream of Jeanie pilot. It's not rocket science. But, c'est la vie.

Yeah, it's definitely not rocket science which is why it's so disappointing, especially after all of their missteps.

We seem to have gotten a few hints of another personality in this episode.

Yup. I loved how the episode opened from Marc's perspective and kept timeskipping on him. I was fooled into thinking it was somehow Steven taking over but as the jumps became more violent, it became clear it couldn't be him.

As much fun as the time machine sky sequence* was, I'm pretty sure whatever astronomy software Layla was using would have been able to do that (because every piece of astronomy software I've ever seen or used can); all they needed was an approximate date, and well . . . carbon dating is a thing, so they should have at least a vague idea of how old the mummy was. Hell, by his own admission Khonshu can remember *every* night. Can he not count too? I mean it's simple arithmetic, no?

* Side note: what the hell even was that?! An illusion? Did the earth just get moved back in time, or was the entire universe spun it's previous configuration? The makers of this show know that there's really no such thing as "the sky" that can be altered the same way "the view out your window" isn't just a picture, right?! How has this not set off every alarm bell in the cosmos? This is the kind of thing galactic empires, celestials, and higher dimensional being are probably going to take issue with. Let's hope it's an illusion because otherwise that's a terrifying amount of cosmic power for an overgrown pigeon. I mean if he can do that, why does he need a mortal meat puppet that punches things?

Yeah, that doubly bugged me. The fact Layla could have easily figured it out mathematically instead of going through all of those theatrics...and the nature of what actually happened. At first, I was hoping we could just dismiss it as something only the three of them experienced, until we saw the rest of Cairo seeing it.

I get the point of it was to trap Khonshu but it was poorly executed twice over.

The entire show raises some interesting questionf for the MCU, chief amongst them if these deities are actually gods by our definition. The MCU went out of its way to explain the Asgardians as superadvanced aliens, whose technology seems like magic to us. Here Khonshu and the others are called gods and behave like them as if they actually are which is exactly like the comics portrayed them too.

Does this mean the MCU has completely shifted away from trying to ground all those superthings in an explainable way ( just extremely advanced tech)?

Not necessarily. The behavior of the Egyptian gods distinctly reminded me of the Time Lords of Doctor Who with their arrogance and belief in non-intervention...right until the obviously evil guy easily manipulates them. That makes me think it's quite easy for them to be aliens, too.

Edit: Also everything Reverend said right before me and far better than I did.

 

[JD]

I know the first Thor movie called the Asgardians advanced aliens, but as the movies have gone on, they seem to be leaning more and more into them being literal gods. Although I guess technically, if they are advanced aliens who were worshiped as gods, they really are just both then.

Turns out that "mandarin" that Arthur Harrow and his acolyte were speaking was actually total gibberish, and Simu Liu called Marvel out on it.

https://uproxx.com/tv/simu-liu-ethan-hawke-mandarin-moon-knight/

That's a shame, you'd think Marvel would know better than that. You might have been able to get away with something like that a few decades ago, but not today.

As much fun as the time machine sky sequence* was, I'm pretty sure whatever astronomy software Layla was using would have been able to do that (because every piece of astronomy software I've ever seen or used can); all they needed was an approximate date, and well . . . carbon dating is a thing, so they should have at least a vague idea of how old the mummy was. Hell, by his own admission Khonshu can remember *every* night. Can he not count too? I mean it's simple arithmetic, no?

* Side note: what the hell even was that?! An illusion? Did the earth just get moved back in time, or was the entire universe spun it's previous configuration? The makers of this show know that there's really no such thing as "the sky" that can be altered the same way "the view out your window" isn't just a picture, right?! How has this not set off every alarm bell in the cosmos? This is the kind of thing galactic empires, celestials, and higher dimensional being are probably going to take issue with. Let's hope it's an illusion because otherwise that's a terrifying amount of cosmic power for an overgrown pigeon. I mean if he can do that, why does he need a mortal meat puppet that punches things?

Yeah, that whole sequence was kind of strange. It was a cool visual, but it really opens up a whole lot of questions, and I doubt the show will address them.

Jason Isaacs just KILLS it in this role. Too bad he'll probably not get any recognition for it as awards like the Emmy and Golden Globes too often ignore good acting because it's Fantasy/Sci Fi ( with the exception of GoT, that was too hard to ignore).

Oscar Isaac plays Marc/Steven/Mook Knight/ect., Jason Isaacs played Capt. Lorca in Star Trek: Discovery, and Lucious Malfoy in the Harry Potter movies.
This episode had a lot of good stuff in it.
It was kind of fun getting to see the personality switches from Marc's perspective.
We got some nice stuff with him and Layla.
It was fun getting to meet the other gods and their avatars.
I was little surprised we got hints at another personality already, I assumed we'd stick with just Marc and Steven.

 

[Skywalker]

The MCU "grounded" the Asgardians as merely highly advanced aliens rather than literal gods because, at the time, the MCU was still very new and the expectation was that everything had to be "grounded" or audiences wouldn't accept it.

Now that the MCU's become such a massive success, they don't really have to worry about such things. The Asgardians, Ennead, Olympians, etc., can just be gods now, because they don't need to be explained.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Anyway - yet another awesome episode that answers some of the questions while immediately creating new ones. Seems like there's a third character hiding in Marc's/Steven's body, possibly the one responsible for the bloody carnage in the first episode because as seen Marc is not bloodthirsty and fights the goons but doesn't actually kill them outright ( hilarious how he hesitated when striking that kid and then just slapped him to the ground or watched that guy posing and licking his blade only to punch him directly in his face while he did that ).

So it seems there will be a reveal coming of a third, hardcore character.

That's my gut feeling as well. Nerys Myk may have been on target, this guy's literally going to be 'The Dark Side of the Moon.' Which I guess also answers what Jake's suit will be - either all black, or mostly black with white highlights.

And the secret Marc's really trying to keep from Layla, over and above the whole replacement thing? The thing that would forever render him unworthy of her love? That version of him is who murdered her archeologist father ten years ago. "Zip-tied and shot in the back of the head, execution-style..."

 

[Turtletrekker]

The MCU "grounded" the Asgardians as merely highly advanced aliens rather than literal gods because, at the time, the MCU was still very new and the expectation was that everything had to be "grounded" or audiences wouldn't accept it.

Now that the MCU's become such a massive success, they don't really have to worry about such things. The Asgardians, Ennead, Olympians, etc., can just be gods now, because they don't need to be explained.

I see the Egyptian gods as being extra dimensional beings, such as Dormammu.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Here’s a thought to ponder:

What if Marc got blipped by Thanos… but Steven wasn’t?
And that’s how Steven got to be the dominant personality?

Basically, Thanos’ snap treated them as 2 completely different persona and with that whole half of all schtick, one of them was a goner…

 

[thribs]

I think what happened was that Marc had it under control but he then killed his wife’s dad and that broke him.

 

[Oso Blanco]

I was hoping this was going to be more like Daredevil, but it's just another family friendly Disney interpretation of a story that could have been so much better. And the six to eight episode format doesn't work for me at all, no time to flesh out all the characters and their reasons.

I know that people are complaining all the time about the Netflix series' being too long, but I think they had just the right balance of character development and story progression. In the new Disney+ Shows it all feels very rushed, jumping from one thing to the other. Hawkeye felt just the same way ... it was over before it even began!

And does anyone seriously continue to complain about the fight scenes in Iron Fist anymore after what we saw here? I know I won't, and I never have!

 

[LaxScrutiny]

I was hoping this was going to be more like Daredevil, but it's just another family friendly Disney interpretation of a story that could have been so much better. And the six to eight episode format doesn't work for me at all, no time to flesh out all the characters and their reasons.

I know that people are complaining all the time about the Netflix series' being too long, but I think they had just the right balance of character development and story progression. In the new Disney+ Shows it all feels very rushed, jumping from one thing to the other. Hawkeye felt just the same way ... it was over before it even began!

And does anyone seriously continue to complain about the fight scenes in Iron Fist anymore after what we saw here? I know I won't, and I never have!

Didn't feel "all over the place" with Hawkeye. We know Clint very well along with his family. We got to know Kate in a well-paced way, and the final big bad was well known enough to need no back story. Don't get me started on Iron Fist, there was a lot more wrong with it than fight scenes.

On the other hand, I do see your point so far with Moon Knight. With other MCU/Disney series we know the characters: MK is new, along with a new cosmology. They have a lot to introduce in too few episodes. It hasn't totally lost coherence for me, but it's got its hiccups.

 

[The Habs Fan]

I liked this episode, but overall I’m not feeling this series as much as the previous Disney+ MCU series. I agree that the short episode count doesn’t help matters. But watching this show I can’t help but compare it to Mr. Robot which dealt with dissociative personality disorder much more effectively than this show. This feels like the vanilla version of that show.

 

[Aragorn]

The gods assembly reminded me of Mass Effect's council. Bad guy says he's innocent, so he must be innocent. Everyone's dismissed!

 

[Reverend]

Here’s a thought to ponder:

What if Marc got blipped by Thanos… but Steven wasn’t?
And that’s how Steven got to be the dominant personality?

Basically, Thanos’ snap treated them as 2 completely different persona and with that whole half of all schtick, one of them was a goner…

A neat idea, but since Thanos' intent was to reduce the number of mouths in the universe, not the number of individual personalities, I suspect that when it comes to bodies with more than one person in it, it was an all or nothing proposition.

I think what happened was that Marc had it under control but he then killed his wife’s dad and that broke him.

More likely it was persona #3 that did it.