Marvel All New, All Different - Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)

[M'rk son of Mogh]

People are over-reacting to the Secret Empire story. It was done well enough (the few humorous moments actually madr me laugh out loud) and the idea wasn't even a quarter as offensive as many seem to make it out to be. The single line synopsis of the series, like almost any crossover, always sounds awful, really, until you actually read it. And anybody that's REALLY offended by fictional Hydra in any way really needs to put down their funny books for a little while and take part in reality for a little bit.

Heck, on another plus, it didn't envelop most of the other books I was reading, unlike the much worse (in every way) Civil War 2.

 

[JD]

I have to be honest, some of the stuff I read about Secret Empire online, actually sounded kind of interesting to me. Once I actually read about it, and found out what was actually going on in it, I really didn't see it as that offensive.

To me, this is an appropriate length of time to leave someone dead. I'm worried Wolverine will come back, which doesn't feel like nearly enough time.

Aren't there already like 4 Wolverines running around now? Old Man Logan, X-23, Jimmy Hudson, and I swear there was at least one more.

 

[Nerys Myk]

For me there were too many can't take it back moments. Cap going full Hydra. Wrecking Vegas. New Tian. Killing off Nat and Rick. Taking over the entire USA.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's really weird that they didn't roll back time, but I suppose that they wanted to show consequences.

 

[Reverend]

It's really weird that they didn't roll back time, but I suppose that they wanted to show consequences.

...all of which will be mostly forgotten in 18 months. This is a comic book "event" after all.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Aren't there already like 4 Wolverines running around now? Old Man Logan, X-23, Jimmy Hudson, and I swear there was at least one more.

I'm not sure Jimmy Hudson is technically Wolverine. I can't think of a fourth either way.

 

[Guy Gardener]

A 10 year old version of Laura, lives with Laura.

X-men 2099 have poped up a couple times in the new Spider-Man 2099, but that was just cancelled again.

Have we met Wolverine from the Spider-Gwen Universe? You know, the Sub-directory universe where Peter Parker is the lizard and Captain America is an African American lady?

Renew Your Vows is the Spider-Girl Universe, right?

 

[kirk55555]

I clicked the link to find out what the worst selling one was. Apparently it's Axis.

Another event focused, weirdly enough, on a Nazi. Specifically, Red Skull made some heroes Evil and some villains good. It was a stupid idea, and the only people that stayed changed were sabertooth (so he could be one of the million replacement Wolverine type characters after Wolverine's death I'm guessing) and Havok, but Havok hasn't even been seen in a long time so he will probably be a good guy again when he shows back up.

People are over-reacting to the Secret Empire story. It was done well enough (the few humorous moments actually madr me laugh out loud) and the idea wasn't even a quarter as offensive as many seem to make it out to be. The single line synopsis of the series, like almost any crossover, always sounds awful, really, until you actually read it. And anybody that's REALLY offended by fictional Hydra in any way really needs to put down their funny books for a little while and take part in reality for a little bit.

Heck, on another plus, it didn't envelop most of the other books I was reading, unlike the much worse (in every way) Civil War 2.

It wasn't just a line. Literal Nazi's took over America. Captain America became a literal Nazi. Some heroes joined the literal nazi. Nazi's killed Black Widow. It was a terribly written event that was also one of the most offensive things Marvel has published.

Civil War 2 at least was an ok idea that had a few good tie ins and didn't, you know, have an ad campaign trying to glorify fucking Nazi's (one article talked to comic shop owners and several said they hated the ad campaign and weren't going to have their employees wear HYDRA shirts because HYDRA are Nazi's and they don't want to force shirts basically supporting Nazi's on their employees). I'll take Captain Marvel going full Minority Report over the all american hero created by jewish creators going full Nazi or shit like putting the one Marvel character that is said to be a fucking Holocaust survivor in what is a HYDRA (aka Nazi, because HYDRA were created to be and always will be a Nazi replacement) cover.

All that doesn't bring up the fact that the whole event had some of the shitiest writing of a Marvel event. Even if you can ignore the hateful, offensive crap, which I really can't and don't think anyone should, the bit I saw and what I've read of it Secret Empire was a shit event even without being horribly offensive and completely moronic.

 

[Captain Craig]

Aren't there already like 4 Wolverines running around now? Old Man Logan, X-23, Jimmy Hudson, and I swear there was at least one more.

What's the status on Daken? Is he still out there, alive or active? I kinda of lost track on him.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

It wasn't just a line. Literal Nazi's took over America. Captain America became a literal Nazi. Some heroes joined the literal nazi. Nazi's killed Black Widow. It was a terribly written event that was also one of the most offensive things Marvel has published.

Civil War 2 at least was an ok idea that had a few good tie ins and didn't, you know, have an ad campaign trying to glorify fucking Nazi's (one article talked to comic shop owners and several said they hated the ad campaign and weren't going to have their employees wear HYDRA shirts because HYDRA are Nazi's and they don't want to force shirts basically supporting Nazi's on their employees). I'll take Captain Marvel going full Minority Report over the all american hero created by jewish creators going full Nazi or shit like putting the one Marvel character that is said to be a fucking Holocaust survivor in what is a HYDRA (aka Nazi, because HYDRA were created to be and always will be a Nazi replacement) cover.

All that doesn't bring up the fact that the whole event had some of the shitiest writing of a Marvel event. Even if you can ignore the hateful, offensive crap, which I really can't and don't think anyone should, the bit I saw and what I've read of it Secret Empire was a shit event even without being horribly offensive and completely moronic.

I feel badly for the people you run into wearing a GI Joe shirt that has the Cobra symbol on it...

Like I said. People take this fiction waaaay too seriously. Eapecially when it was telegraphed on page one that this wasn't even Captain America, or at least not a real version of him. But people love to hate, these days.

 

[JD]

For me there were too many can't take it back moments. Cap going full Hydra. Wrecking Vegas. New Tian. Killing off Nat and Rick. Taking over the entire USA.

OK, I forgot about or didn't hear about a lot of that stuff, some of that is pretty bad. By Nat do you mean Black Widow? I haven't read the actual comics, just some of the articles on place like Io9, CBR, and the Marvel Wiki.

Renew Your Vows is the Spider-Girl Universe, right?

No Renew Your Vows is it's own universe.

What's the status on Daken? Is he still out there, alive or active? I kinda of lost track on him.

According to the Marvel Wiki, he was last seen in this June's All-New Wolverine #21.

 

[kirk55555]

I feel badly for the people you run into wearing a GI Joe shirt that has the Cobra symbol on it...

Like I said. People take this fiction waaaay too seriously. Eapecially when it was telegraphed on page one that this wasn't even Captain America, or at least not a real version of him. But people love to hate, these days.

COBRA were just bad guys. HYDRA was created to be a Nazi replacement in comics where they didn't want to put actual Nazi's. It let the writers do more without getting the comics banned or restricted in areas that don't allow or restrict Nazi's in media, and its just easier to work with a made up bad guy then to use Nazi's in many situations. Still, they're still very much connected to the Nazi's, while groups like COBRA were just bad guys created to fight the good guys and not a stand in for another group.

According to the Marvel Wiki, he was last seen in this June's All-New Wolverine #21.

Yeah, Daken showed up in that book and was fairly friendly, surprisingly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Secret Empire Omega was helpful.

Spoiler

Cap and Evil cap (who is in jail) talk philosophy and Black Widow may not be dead.

 

[Nerys Myk]

COBRA were just bad guys. HYDRA was created to be a Nazi replacement in comics where they didn't want to put actual Nazi's. It let the writers do more without getting the comics banned or restricted in areas that don't allow or restrict Nazi's in media, and its just easier to work with a made up bad guy then to use Nazi's in many situations. Still, they're still very much connected to the Nazi's, while groups like COBRA were just bad guys created to fight the good guys and not a stand in for another group.

Umm, Fury was fighting Nazis in the Sgt Fury title before Hydra first appeared in the SHIELD strip in Strange Tales. It was basically a riff on the evil organization trope in the Bond films just as Modern Day Fury was Marvel's answer to James Bond. Characters in war comics from all publishers were fighting Nazi from four to twelve times a year. Captain America had a series of stories set WWII in Tales of Suspense where he fought Nazis. The FF fought a clone of Hitler (the Hate-Monger) in issue #21 of their comic, which also introduce the modern day version of Fury. The actual Nazi connection doesn't appear until Baron von Strucker is revealed to be the leader of Hydra.

 

[kirk55555]

Umm, Fury was fighting Nazis in the Sgt Fury title before Hydra first appeared in the SHIELD strip in Strange Tales. It was basically a riff on the evil organization trope in the Bond films just as Modern Day Fury was Marvel's answer to James Bond. Characters in war comics from all publishers were fighting Nazi from four to twelve times a year. Captain America had a series of stories set WWII in Tales of Suspense where he fought Nazis. The FF fought a clone of Hitler (the Hate-Monger) in issue #21 of their comic, which also introduce the modern day version of Fury. The actual Nazi connection doesn't appear until Baron von Strucker is revealed to be the leader of Hydra.

Yeah, obviously they still used Nazi's at times. That doesn't mean that HYDRA weren't a Nazi replacement. The MCU didn't make up replacing Nazi's with HYDRA. I suppose I didn't explain what I meant about HYDRA very well. Marvel could and still did use Nazi's, but HYDRA gave them a Nazi type group they could use in ways that they couldn't use Nazi's. If Spider-Woman had been a Nazi agent instead of a HYDRA agent, for example, she really couyldn't have gone from villain to hero very well. HYDRA could be a milder Nazi-ish group, basically. When outright Nazi's are involved, things tend to be more intense. That doesn't mean HYDRA aren't very much connected to Nazi's or make what Secret Empire did less offensive. HYDRA also could be used as much as they wanted without seeming dated. Unless you use Neo nazi's, using actual nazi's in a comic are pretty much limited to either WW2 or time travel stories. Nick Fury fighting Nazi's in the 60s would be weird, so he fights HYDRA, who weren't defeated in a war and could stick around indefinitely while staying up to date.

In the end, HYDRA is a Nazi connected organization. They're fascists and mostly lead by Nazi's and to pretend they aren't is asinine. Hickman's moronic "HYDRA dates back to ancient Egypt" was both stupid and basically rejected by most readers, and the MCU made sure that HYDRA can't be disconnected from nazi's. Pretty much everyone realizes this, except a few idiots who work for Marvel and apparently the dim bulbs who run the company. Its come back to bite them on the ass so I hope, at the very least, that the financial consequences forces them to change how they have been doing things even if most of the people in charge don't seem to care that they have pissed off and offended a good chunk of their comic reading audience.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The MCU didn't make up replacing Nazi's with HYDRA. I suppose I didn't explain what I meant about HYDRA very well. Marvel could and still did use Nazi's, but HYDRA gave them a Nazi type group they could use in ways that they couldn't use Nazi's

What exactly what was Nazi-ish about Hydra in the beginning? I mean the hard core Nazi stuff like racism or genocide? Hydra was just a "Bwahahahah, we wanna rule the world" evil organization at first. Not all that different than Cobra, SPECTRE or THRUSH

 

[Captain Craig]

So when @JD mentioned there being 4 "Wolverines" and didn't list Daken that was why I brought him up. He said, "Old Man Logan, X-23, Jimmy Hudson, and I swear there was at least one more."
Is Daken possibly your "one more"?

 

[JD]

Yeah, he was.

 

[JD]

Alex Ross posted a sketch he did of Reed Richards and Sue Storm to Instagram, and now that has a lot of people wondering if this could hint at a reunion of the FF.

 

[JD]

It's kind of ironic Daken was just brought up, it turns out the Wolverine Legacy issue will be starting a partnership between him and Laura.