Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
The Cardassian/Bajoran = Nazi/Jewish thing is obvious. I think that one is a given.
Least Relatable Character?
- Thread starter Emnabtond
- Start date
And stupid, since it doesn't work, for already stated reasons. If they intended that to be the parallel, then they failed very badly and misrepresented the Nazis and Holocaust. I would rather believe that they did not.
The only episode in which it works is "Duet" - as it is about a concentration camp and genocide, but it is obvious in the show that the overall policy of the Cardassian Occupation was nothing like "The Final Solution". And it's not like Nazi holocaust is the only historical example of genocide. Far from that.
The only reason that some people find it "obvious" is because comparing everything and everyone to Nazis is so popular - that's why the Godwin law was invented. And it's popular because it is easier to make a point about something being evil if you compare it to the Nazis. It makes things so simple and removes any potential political controversy or moral ambiguity. Try talking about the colonialism instead, or, say, about Turks and Armenians or Kurds, or wars in ex-Yugoslavia, or Palestine, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and you're opening a big can of worms. Much safer to talk about the Nazis - there, everyone except for a small minority of neo-Nazi freaks will agree that they were evil, and you don't have to worry about stirring up shit.
Oh yeah, there is another reason: we've all seen so many movies about the Nazis. And if I were to be particularly cynical, I'd say that Trek's Cardassian imagery - their uniforms, for instance - evoke the movie Nazis and Nazi chic, rather than having similarities with real-life Nazis.
She was shown regularly going to religious services, and accepted Winn as Kai even though Kira hated her personally. She regularly insisted to Sisko that she believed the Prophets were not aliens, but Gods. And yes, she always wore her earing, a Bajoran equivalent of a crucifix in Christianity. That her religious belief was not the subject of every episode is not self-contradictory. Rather, it's the burden of a continuing series with a variety of interests.
Personally, I don't find Kira's "faith" in the face of clear evidence of the Prophet's extraterrestrial origins to be particularly relatable, since I'm an atheist who puts his trust in science. But I also don't find her behaviour to be unbelievable, since it reflects many people I know. I really don't see what you're getting at, stj.
Since I am a religious person, I come at this issue from almost the opposite side as Harvey, but I nonetheless strongly agree with him. I don't bring up my faith all that often - particularly when I'm around people who I know believe something different. I bring it up when it's pertinent but if it's not, I don't - kind of like what I'm doing right here, now that I think about it. Volume of religious verbiage is not a particularly useful way to measure religious faith.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
You and ther other guy whose name I can't really remember (Decker avatar) may have anayzed your way right out of something simple.And stupid, since it doesn't work, for already stated reasons. If they intended that to be the parallel, then they failed very badly and misrepresented the Nazis and Holocaust. I would rather believe that they did not.
The only episode in which it works is "Duet" - as it is about a concentration camp and genocide, but it is obvious in the show that the overall policy of the Cardassian Occupation was nothing like "The Final Solution". And it's not like Nazi holocaust is the only historical example of genocide. Far from that.
The only reason that some people find it "obvious" is because comparing everything and everyone to Nazis is so popular - that's why the Godwin law was invented. And it's popular because it is easier to make a point about something being evil if you compare it to the Nazis. It makes things so simple and removes any potential political controversy or moral ambiguity. Try talking about the colonialism instead, or, say, about Turks and Armenians or Kurds, or wars in ex-Yugoslavia, or Palestine, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and you're opening a big can of worms. Much safer to talk about the Nazis - there, everyone except for a small minority of neo-Nazi freaks will agree that they were evil, and you don't have to worry about stirring up shit.
Oh yeah, there is another reason: we've all seen so many movies about the Nazis. And if I were to be particularly cynical, I'd say that Trek's Cardassian imagery - their uniforms, for instance - evoke the movie Nazis and Nazi chic, rather than having similarities with real-life Nazis.
We aren't supposed to follow the whole arc of DS9 and compare it to the rise and fall of the Third Reich.
Not every episode of DS9 that features Cardassians and Bajorans is supposed to be an allegory for the Nazis/Jews either, but the first resemblance is still there, and I believe intended.
Well yeah, because not only they are militaristic and oppressive (meh, that's really not exclusive to the Nazis), but more importantly, they wear black uniforms, gloves and jackboots! Duh! Apparently Cardassians like to be dressed up already when they take their leave to go to the Military and Nazi Chic Night at the local leather club. (It's usually the night after the Zombie Chic Goth Night that the Borg like to attend.)
Well yeah, because not only they are militaristic and oppressive (meh, that's really not exclusive to the Nazis), but more importantly, they wear black uniforms, gloves and jackboots! Duh! Apparently Cardassians like to be dressed up already when they take their leave to go to the Military and Nazi Chic Night at the local leather club. (It's usually the night after the Zombie Chic Goth Night that the Borg like to attend.)
Mmmmmm.....Zombie Chic Goths.
Was the fellow playing Dukat the ame guy who was Scorpio in Dirty Harry?
No, the one playing Garak was Scorpio.Mmmmmm.....Zombie Chic Goths.
Was the fellow playing Dukat the ame guy who was Scorpio in Dirty Harry?
Well yeah, because not only they are militaristic and oppressive (meh, that's really not exclusive to the Nazis), but more importantly, they wear black uniforms, gloves and jackboots! Duh! Apparently Cardassians like to be dressed up already when they take their leave to go to the Military and Nazi Chic Night at the local leather club. (It's usually the night after the Zombie Chic Goth Night that the Borg like to attend.)
Yeah, and the night before the Zombie Chic Goth Night is the 80s thrash metalhead night that the Klingons are so fond of.
Then there's the Beatles night for the Vulcans and Romulans.
And the Blue Man group night for Bolians and Andorians!
I repeat--insisting the Cardassians=Nazis and Bajorans=Jews can only be correct if there is a literal one to one correspondence is stupid. Since neither Cardassians, Bajorans, Nazis and Jews are numerical quantities nor algebraic variables, the equals sign is plainly a metaphor. But even if one is foolish enough to take it literally, it still applies to Duet and Ensign Ro. There are no other tenable analog, or even interpretations, for those key early episodes. If you dismiss them, you might as well dismiss the entire DS9 series.
The desperate attempts to reinterpret the Obsidian Order as a Japanese military faction instead of an analog of the SS, with the Central Command as Wehrmacht OKW, or the earring as crucifix instead of phylactery fail miserably. The claim that Nerys was regularly shown attending services is not true of the first season. I really doubt there is any real disagreement with me on this, just malice. I don't think anyone can honestly claim there wasn't intent for the identification. The Prophets could have been called The Oracles, or The Devas, or just The Gods. It's unbelievable anyone is so style deaf they can't get the point.
Kira's suspicion of Sisko's Emissary status, hugely important to the original character, doesn't make any sense, except as a Jew being reluctant to conceive of a non-Jewish Messiah. If the Bajoran religion were not a standin for Judaism, the question of why she didn't accept the Prophets guidance immediately. No one asks because everyone understands the basic equation.
The Prophets allowed Cardassia to rule Bajor and slaughter Bajorans, as Yahweh allowed the Romans to disposses the Jews. Jews have long ago come to terms with it, either rationalizing it or turning their religion into an ethnic identity. The Bajorans on TV are not concerned with this recent catastrophic history because they are Jews for whom this is not recent catastrophic history. But for Kira, the starring Bajoran, it is not old news, but supposedly personal history. Her non-reaction is entirely inconsistent with her purported on screen biography. Hence it is unbelievable. Those who relate to Kira do not do so because she is more consistent or more believeable.
The desperate attempts to reinterpret the Obsidian Order as a Japanese military faction instead of an analog of the SS, with the Central Command as Wehrmacht OKW, or the earring as crucifix instead of phylactery fail miserably. The claim that Nerys was regularly shown attending services is not true of the first season. I really doubt there is any real disagreement with me on this, just malice. I don't think anyone can honestly claim there wasn't intent for the identification. The Prophets could have been called The Oracles, or The Devas, or just The Gods. It's unbelievable anyone is so style deaf they can't get the point.
Kira's suspicion of Sisko's Emissary status, hugely important to the original character, doesn't make any sense, except as a Jew being reluctant to conceive of a non-Jewish Messiah. If the Bajoran religion were not a standin for Judaism, the question of why she didn't accept the Prophets guidance immediately. No one asks because everyone understands the basic equation.
The Prophets allowed Cardassia to rule Bajor and slaughter Bajorans, as Yahweh allowed the Romans to disposses the Jews. Jews have long ago come to terms with it, either rationalizing it or turning their religion into an ethnic identity. The Bajorans on TV are not concerned with this recent catastrophic history because they are Jews for whom this is not recent catastrophic history. But for Kira, the starring Bajoran, it is not old news, but supposedly personal history. Her non-reaction is entirely inconsistent with her purported on screen biography. Hence it is unbelievable. Those who relate to Kira do not do so because she is more consistent or more believeable.
Well, yes, of course! It is a well-known fact that Nazi Germany invaded the Jewish state and occupied it for several decades, and the oppressed Jews fought back and became famous for their terrorist activities and their many terrorist organizations that managed to put fear into the Nazis despite their military power and made them reconsider the occupation...
Um....
It is very amusing to see someone argue that Bajorans and Cardassians on DS9 are a literal analogy for Jews and Nazis, and then argue that literal analogies are stupid.
Thing is, Bajor and Cardassia can stand for many different nations and groups. There have certainly been many cases of occupation and imperialism throughout history. There is no one on one correspondence, and you know what that means? That there be many different analogies that people can - and do - draw to all kinds of different real life examples. Be careful with the literal analogies - you may not like some of them as much as you like the one you keep insisting on.
For instance, when I was reading the DS9 novel Betrayal, and this passage was interesting:
This sounds somehow familiar... but it hardly reminded me of Jews. At least not in the role of Bajorans.
Yes, the Bajoran earings are truly phylactery! I admit, I had to look that up to find out that you were referring to tefillin, stj, which I knew by sight if not by name until now.
On that point, the only way in which the Bajoran earings are "obviously" a Jewish tefillin, rather than a Christian Crucifix is that it helps to fill out your Bajoran=Jew equation. Nevermind that a crucifix necklace, like a Bajoran earing, is a simple piece of jewelry, while the tefillin is not. Never mind that it is not widely worn (orthodox Judaism restricts the tefillin to adolescent boys, other iterations of Judaism discard it altogether).
I must admit, however, that a Star of David would fit your argument much more elegantly, so I won't belabour the point.
You insist that the Bajorans don't blame the Prophets for the occupation. Some don't, some do. As I recall, the followers of the Pah-Wraiths were rather distraught at the Prophets' lack of intervention. Also of importance is that the occupation lasted for fifty years, the Jewish holocaust twelve years. Enough time, I think, for religious dogma to come up with theological excuses for the lack of divine intervention.
You claim that Nerys didn't attend religious services regularly during the first season. I have no idea if this assertion is valid or not, but it seems besides the point, because Nerys did regularly attend services over the course of the series, and regularly spoke of her faith as well.
Lastly, your point that Nerys' inability to immediately accept Sisko as the Emissary seems rather silly (or, to appropriate your language, fails miserably). In the same way that she is troubled by Winn's ascension to Kai, she is troubled by Sisko being named Emissary. But due to her faith, Nerys does not project these personal feelings into outright hostility.
But, the Federation offered no hand of intervention during the Occupation. The Cardassians left because (a) they had strip-mined the planet into worthlessness and (b) Bajoran terrorist attacks destroyed their resolve (and their numbers). And after all that, in which she was an important participant, Nerys has to accept not only the Federation's presence on DS9, but after so many Bajorans have died, a non-Bajoran who she is already in conflict with is named Emissary! That such behavior could only be believable if the Bajorans are metaphoric Jews is an absurd notion.
On that point, the only way in which the Bajoran earings are "obviously" a Jewish tefillin, rather than a Christian Crucifix is that it helps to fill out your Bajoran=Jew equation. Nevermind that a crucifix necklace, like a Bajoran earing, is a simple piece of jewelry, while the tefillin is not. Never mind that it is not widely worn (orthodox Judaism restricts the tefillin to adolescent boys, other iterations of Judaism discard it altogether).
I must admit, however, that a Star of David would fit your argument much more elegantly, so I won't belabour the point.
You insist that the Bajorans don't blame the Prophets for the occupation. Some don't, some do. As I recall, the followers of the Pah-Wraiths were rather distraught at the Prophets' lack of intervention. Also of importance is that the occupation lasted for fifty years, the Jewish holocaust twelve years. Enough time, I think, for religious dogma to come up with theological excuses for the lack of divine intervention.
You claim that Nerys didn't attend religious services regularly during the first season. I have no idea if this assertion is valid or not, but it seems besides the point, because Nerys did regularly attend services over the course of the series, and regularly spoke of her faith as well.
Lastly, your point that Nerys' inability to immediately accept Sisko as the Emissary seems rather silly (or, to appropriate your language, fails miserably). In the same way that she is troubled by Winn's ascension to Kai, she is troubled by Sisko being named Emissary. But due to her faith, Nerys does not project these personal feelings into outright hostility.
But, the Federation offered no hand of intervention during the Occupation. The Cardassians left because (a) they had strip-mined the planet into worthlessness and (b) Bajoran terrorist attacks destroyed their resolve (and their numbers). And after all that, in which she was an important participant, Nerys has to accept not only the Federation's presence on DS9, but after so many Bajorans have died, a non-Bajoran who she is already in conflict with is named Emissary! That such behavior could only be believable if the Bajorans are metaphoric Jews is an absurd notion.
^^^And I've already pointed out that there is no analogue to the wormhole, which also shows there is not only not a literal allegory to WWII, but has no resemblance to anything on Earth. I've also noted that the Dominion is analogous to the USSR, which did not come to blows with the US and UK!
So what is your point? That you don't understand what I do mean? I rather think not, since you haven't troubled to ask for clarification. You would much rather pretend I made a literal analogy despite the glaring fact that I didn't.
Your problem is that you can't make any useful comparisons between Kira, her religion and her personal history with anything besides Nazis and Jews. There's nothing in real world history that makes her peculiar character more understandable. There are no other analogies that can enlighten us as to how her character is more consistent and more believable, hence more relatable. You can't even cite that episode where Bajor was retconned with a caste system because it's inconsistent with the opening of the series!
You're left with a character who is supposedly devout, but doesn't think about her religion, even when she meets the Emissary! She is supposedly a civilian turned resistance fighter but acts like a cliche antipolitical soldier. She is supposedly a dutiful character instead of being an ambitious soldier/politician remaking the nation after a revolution. She is supposedly on a dead end job but serial dates the greatest public figures.
You can't reconcile these inconsistencies. Instead you try to insist that the extremely obvious analogies between Jews and Nazis on DS9 are somehow nonexistent if they are not literally exact, even though no one said they were.
When people talk about a relatable character, they (mostly) mean someone they identify with, not because they're consistent or realistic, but because they embody their wish fulfilment self, or wish fulfilment friend, or wish fulfilment lover. And when they make such crazy arguments to supposedly show consistency and realism, they're exhibiting the symptoms of denial.
So what is your point? That you don't understand what I do mean? I rather think not, since you haven't troubled to ask for clarification. You would much rather pretend I made a literal analogy despite the glaring fact that I didn't.
Your problem is that you can't make any useful comparisons between Kira, her religion and her personal history with anything besides Nazis and Jews. There's nothing in real world history that makes her peculiar character more understandable. There are no other analogies that can enlighten us as to how her character is more consistent and more believable, hence more relatable. You can't even cite that episode where Bajor was retconned with a caste system because it's inconsistent with the opening of the series!
You're left with a character who is supposedly devout, but doesn't think about her religion, even when she meets the Emissary! She is supposedly a civilian turned resistance fighter but acts like a cliche antipolitical soldier. She is supposedly a dutiful character instead of being an ambitious soldier/politician remaking the nation after a revolution. She is supposedly on a dead end job but serial dates the greatest public figures.
You can't reconcile these inconsistencies. Instead you try to insist that the extremely obvious analogies between Jews and Nazis on DS9 are somehow nonexistent if they are not literally exact, even though no one said they were.
When people talk about a relatable character, they (mostly) mean someone they identify with, not because they're consistent or realistic, but because they embody their wish fulfilment self, or wish fulfilment friend, or wish fulfilment lover. And when they make such crazy arguments to supposedly show consistency and realism, they're exhibiting the symptoms of denial.
I'll be skipping over the rest of stj's posts which is 1) repetitive, 2) has already been proven wrong, 3) beside the point (mostly all three at the same time)...
^ Amusing comment, that last one.
Silliest analogy in this thread, by far. At least you could have compared Dominion to the Third Reich - that might have made some sense (powerful, expansionist force bent on conquering the known world, and driven by paranoia and a belief in racial superiority).
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Talk:Occupation_of_Bajor
http://www.indopedia.org/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine.html
http://wrongquestions.blogspot.com/2008/01/back-through-wormhole-part-iv-looking.html
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/07/i-am-properly-addressed-as-ensign-ro.php
http://astroguyz.com/2008/06/26/sci-fi-on-tv-movies-the-good-the-bad-the-alien-ugly/
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Generation-Episode-Ensign/dp/630417957X
http://jeffords.blogspot.com/2009/10/star-trek-next-generation-ensign-ro.html
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarTrek
^ Amusing comment, that last one.
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0509/0509startrekp1.htm
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3349967&postcount=79
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I don't know if your post was in direct response to me, but it appears so, and I'll operate under that assumption until you state otherwise.
As a point of fact, I stated early on that I didn't personally identify or relate with Kira. I find your persistent condescension that anyone who disagrees with you is engaging in self-denial in service of childish wish-fulfillment to be insulting.
When she first meets Sisko, he’s not the Emissary of the Prophets, but simply a Federation officer with motives she’s unable to trust. Nevertheless, she manages to express her personal belief that the Kai (a religious figure much more analogous to the Pope than any figure in Judaism that I can think of, but I’m the first to admit I’m no religious scholar) is the only person who can keep Kira’s newly freed nation state united.
And, once Sisko is named the Emissary, is it honestly unbelievable or surprising to you that his early conversations with Kira on the subject of Bajoran faith would be awkward and brief? Sisko is extremely uncomfortable with his newly ordained title, believes the Prophets to be intelligent aliens, and is unfamiliar with the Bajoran faith he is supposed to be leading. What possible conversation could Kira and Sisko have beyond those depicted on screen?
Several others have expressed fine arguments justifying this behavior, but it’s obvious you’re so entrenched in your own ideology that you wouldn't even consider them.
Nobody here has categorically denied the similarities as you claim. You, on the other hand, seem rather insistent that the parallels of your reading are the only possible interpretation of the text. DevilEyes has been gracious enough to provide a great wealth of other, well reasoned interpretations.
So, stj, what d’ya got?
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