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Least Relatable Character?

This happens when?

When Kira is retconned as religiously conservative in In the Hands of the Prophets.

Not really. It's entirely possible for people to be devotedly religious and also fairly polite to people who do not share their faith.

Incidentally talking about normal activities like reading religious literature, attending ceremonies, listening to vedeks etc. is not lecturing, much less being rude.

That there's no evangelical angle to Bajoran religion and their morality isn't as far removed from the Federation (it's never even hinted that Kira sleeping unmarried with a vedek is a problem), there's really less need for conflict. Whether or not the latter point is wishful thinking, the treatment of Bajor's religion and Kira's relation to it grows mostly organically out of what has been established about it.

A religion where you can do pretty much exactly what you want, besides really gross stuff like murder people, but still be religious is wish fulfilment, not something that's been established. I'm looking to Kira to dramatize the Bajoran religion. There's nothing there. And I can't relate to nothing.

He's still the anointed of God. Do you presume to lecture him in these ways? Remember, this guy actually talks to the Prophets. You really would want to be a vedek to lecture him, and neither Opaka nor Winn ever seem interested in this task, nor do the vedeks who reside on DS9 or Bareil, all figures Sisko has fairly regular contact with. Kira is not the only Bajoran in the stable and it is rather simply not her job.

Dramatically speaking, Kira is the only Bajoran in the stable, aka the main cast. I can't take this rebuttal seriously because the Bajorans don't take the Emissary seriously. He's supposed to talk to the Prophets they allegedly adore but they don't care what they have to say. Even if Kira decides (offscreen) that Sisko will become a devout follower of the Prophets, however does she know that she doesn't have a minor educational role in his advance to his Prophet-ordained destiny?

They didn't have proof. Maybe she could have taken a more robust line, but honestly it's fair to say she disliked Winn from that point on.

They didn't have enough evidence to guarantee conviction. Kira knew what Winn was, from the beginning.

Considering that Kira consistently dislikes Winn, opposes her at every turn, and outright fights against her government in a guerilla war in "Shakaar", she's a trifle less accepting of her than she is of Sisko, a man who she never opposed by arms and certainly demonstratably liked more, especially from late S1 on.

Winn comes on stage as a mad bomber and a coup plotter. She may have disliked her more but I can't help but think a devout person would have been distraught at such a person taking over. Plainly she's just not that concerned with the religion. Except the dialogue insists she is. Then, if she is so devout she accepts Winn as the mysterious ways of the Prophets, why doesn't she accept the Emissary the same way? Kira is just nonsense and wish fulfilment, not a real character.

It is when it's first brought up, but religion in any context has not been mentioned until this point. And Kira's religious position in this episode is basically the feeling that Bajoran kids should be allowed to be taught the Bajoran faith explanation of the wormhole aliens - and if you've never known someone who doesn't bring up their religion at all in day to day life until a hot button issue such as this is raised, then I can only assure you that such people actually exist.

The issue was raised by the existence of the Emissary. Not noticing makes Kira unimaginably stupid. It's a major character retcon in the last episode of the first season.

I don't believe I've said anything of the kind (you may be thinking of DevilEyes).

And even still, I was just using Israel as an example because it's a nation closely connected with a specific religion that also has political and military ties to a major superpower.

The argument would remain valid for basically any country that is of the opinion its god acts in mysterious ways; which to varying degrees is the extent of a lot of religion (certainly, most major faiths do not expect their gods to lend palpable military support.)

A joint opposition means sharing positions, including the ludicrous insistence that Bajorans are an independent fictional creation with numerous incidental parallels with such a diversity of real world analogues that it is misleading to focus on one.

But she's hardly apolitical - she takes sides in every major Bajoran political conflict the show has.

Repeated dialogue in season one refutes you. If you're arguing that they finally straightened out the Kira character, so that she made sense, I suppose I'm done arguing. I couldn't hack DS9 on a regular basis after season one. The big zero in Nana Visitor's space the first season helped make the show too dreary to tolerate. (Also, a mysterious aversion to Terry Farrell didn't help either. No, I don't know why I can't stand her, that's why it's mysterious.)

She doesn't engage in political maneuvering because that's unattractive and unvirtuous,
Didn't I just say she did? It's sexy because it involves screwing people but she's definitely politically 'maneuvering' in how she handled her stances with Bareil and Shakaar, and "The Circle" arc was the same deal but surprisingly enough without the sex.
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Taking sides against a powercrazed hypocrite like Winn is virtuous. As was probably surmised, since I've explicitly mentioned it several times, how did Kira politic for her job? I'm finding it difficult to remember if she even had a boss!
 
When Kira is retconned as religiously conservative in In the Hands of the Prophets.
I'm sorry, but that's not enough proof to claim she rejected the idea that the Emissary had a viewpoint. She didn't address it, but this is not a 'that, therefore that' position.

A religion where you can do pretty much exactly what you want, besides really gross stuff like murder people, but still be religious is wish fulfilment, not something that's been established.
It's science fiction, which means the writers can invent any religion they please. All that matters for me is that in then operates in a manner which makes sense, which it mostly does.

Dramatically speaking, Kira is the only Bajoran in the stable, aka the main cast. I can't take this rebuttal seriously because the Bajorans don't take the Emissary seriously. He's supposed to talk to the Prophets they allegedly adore but they don't care what they have to say.
It is a big issue. Whenever he claims to speak on behalf of the Prophets, or prophetically, or use his authority as the Emissary, there are consequences - like keeping Bajor neutral during the Dominion War, or his visions in "Rapture". The thing is, Sisko almost never says he's speaking in that way.

Consider if you will Haile Selaisse, who has a messianic role in Rastafarianism. The fact he was a member of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and never claimed any such role for himself is sort of beside the point in that religion. So goes Sisko.

Winn comes on stage as a mad bomber and a coup plotter. She may have disliked her more but I can't help but think a devout person would have been distraught at such a person taking over. Plainly she's just not that concerned with the religion. Except the dialogue insists she is. Then, if she is so devout she accepts Winn as the mysterious ways of the Prophets, why doesn't she accept the Emissary the same way?

She doesn't accept Winn, but she does have to live with the reality that Winn is the person in charge.

A joint opposition means sharing positions,
It never means that. I wasn't building on DevilEyes' arguments, I was making my own. It's facetious to aver otherwise.

Repeated dialogue in season one refutes you.

No, because I'm referring to "In the Hands..." on. Whatever Kira may have claimed about apoliticism, there are actually no stated Bajoran political issues until that episode.

Taking sides against a powercrazed hypocrite like Winn is virtuous. As was probably surmised, since I've explicitly mentioned it several times, how did Kira politic for her job? I'm finding it difficult to remember if she even had a boss!
Hero of the resistance. In the real world, someone with military credentials can ride their 'apolitical' stance all the way to public office - General Eisenhower certainly claimed to not be a partisan for either party, but he wound up as a Republican President. So it goes - you'd like to have a famous or at least notable face on your side, no?
 
I could never relate to Uhura, but I suspect that has a lot to do with my not being a beautiful black woman in the 1960's.
 
As dramatized by the Kira character, Bajoran religion did not make sense, it made nothing. The airy assumption that Bajoran religion works defies all human experience, except that in Trek, "alien" races almost never are supposed to true aliens, but metahors for other cultures. This complaint is like those ideologically that the Federation is impossible, because people just aren't like that. Except that historical experience proves that moral values do change with technological progress. Ideological motives do not make convincing arguments.

Having a set of Prophets whose prophecies actually came true should have been like living in the FlashForward universe, but Kira so easily restrains herself from asking Sisko that she appears to be suspicious of him for being from the dubious Federation?

(Which by the way, since Bajor is supposedly on track to joining the Federation makes her an opponent of government, but despite this she is the one dealing with the Starfleet representative on a daily basis? And the Bajoran government doesn't transfer her?)

Here comes an Emissary of the Prophets who talks about them being wormhole aliens. Kira supposedly is too humble to talk about her beliefs but doesn't even consider accepting the Emissary's viewpoint because it contradicts the one she supposedly already holds?

Kira is an intelligent believer but doesn't know that the Emissary's viewpoint in principle questions everything she has believed before (supposedly,) but she doesn't even notice?

According to you, Kira is merely disingenuous with her claims of being antipolitical, as a ploy to parlay her hero status into political advancement? You're just making stuff up now.

The simple point that Kira can't be all these things simultaneously, can't really be what the dialogue proclaims her to be, has been proved. The problem of what that implies about the perceptions of her fans is not my problem to resolve.
 
Have certain Niners permanently derailed this thread? or will it eventually return to the OT?
 
ro_laren.jpg


^ Bing!

Worst.... Character..... E'var.

I'm glad she didn't continue in the TNG series for very long. They did better with the angry, fighting Bajoran with Major Kira.


NOOOOOO!
Ro was awesome sauce.

Agreed. Ro added some much-needed spice to the bridge crew.
 
The character that comes to mind[as the least relatable character] is: Commanda Trip Tucka....Mr.'What are your orders Cap'n?'

Dude is just not interesting to me.

Me either. He was a bigoted unlikeable jerk. A completely pointless character.
 
Have certain Niners permanently derailed this thread? or will it eventually return to the OT?

Hey hey hey hey.

I'm not a Niner.

As dramatized by the Kira character, Bajoran religion did not make sense, it made nothing. The airy assumption that Bajoran religion works defies all human experience,

Emphasis added.

You're assuming a literally staggering amount of knowledge at your disposal there, y'know.

Having a set of Prophets whose prophecies actually came true should have been like living in the FlashForward universe, but Kira so easily restrains herself from asking Sisko that she appears to be suspicious of him for being from the dubious Federation?
Unfortunately their prophecies are about as vague and mutuable as, well, Biblical prophecies - as the episode "Destiny" alluded to. The Prophets aren't the Flash Forward scenario, it'd be what if we had positive proof that the Christian God was real but he isn't spelling out Revelation's phantasmagorical prose in an easy-to-follow bulletin?

Kira is an intelligent believer but doesn't know that the Emissary's viewpoint in principle questions everything she has believed before (supposedly,) but she doesn't even notice?
She could assume it's part of the Prophet's Plan, (as indeed it is). I think most of this has to do with the series not broaching the idea of the Prophets as well as it could have than Kira specifically.

According to you, Kira is merely disingenuous with her claims of being antipolitical, as a ploy to parlay her hero status into political advancement? You're just making stuff up now.

Um, no. I'm saying she takes sides later on. Character growth? You decide.
 
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