Least favorite Trek

[Angel4576]

Fragmentation of the syndicated markets is a perfectly plausible argument. It's common knowledge/fact that the markets were fragmenting as DS9 aired. TNG was the number one rated show throughout the majority of its run, particularly later on. DS9's numbers were dwarfed by TNG's, yet was still the number two rated show in syndication. It was either Xena or Hercules that topped it, can't remember which, but as the number one rated show at the time, it too was far from getting the numbers that TNG once enjoyed.

Dependent on coverage, network shows should garner higher numbers by virtue of the fact that they enjoy a more stable broadcast platform. Same time, same place, week-in, week-out.

Re the gamble, seven years of TNG was a long time, but a successful seven years ultimately. The lure of more of the same would have been obvious, and given that this is Berman that we're talking about, the fact that we got anything remotely different is a minor miracle in itself.

 

[Jeri]

Angel4576 , I wasn't referring to STNG as a sequel: the NG well is what's under discussion -- VOY and ENT. And if "the lure of more of the same" were obvious, then that's what they would have done. They didn't. It wasn't courage; it was the practical choice -- and that's Berman.

 

[freak]

Voyager bugs the crap outta me. If it was not for 7 I would never watch the reruns. In fact I never watch the reruns she's not in. terrible show, Janeway's voice is annoying as all f*ck too.

Hey, don't talk about my show that way!!!! Anyway, you're entitled to your own opinions. I didn't like Enterprise at all. Scott Bakula's character bugged me and so did that stupid T'Pol character. The show was slow and hardly had any action, IMO. I am the exact opposite-I loved Voyager the best because of the storyline and the characters. Of course they had some stinker eps (Threshold to name a few) but the plot developments really had me coming back for more.

The least fav: Enterprise and DS9. I just couldn't get into those very much.

 

[Angel4576]

Again, I'd disagree. Berman is very much of the 'play it safe' mindset. Everything about Voyager and Enterprise was 'safe'. They may as well have just admitted that they learnt no lessons from DS9 at all. DS9 was the only Star Trek after TNG that moved with the times in which it was made. The formatting of both Voyager and Enterprise was so far off the pace when it was measured against the likes of B5 and Farscape, it was unreal. In terms of quality, there's no comparison and it's not surprising that people didn't come back to Star Trek once DS9 finished.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Jeri said:

I always disliked DS-9, and I spent the $700 on the entire set and watched it all, and I still disliked it. I wanted to know what happened in that part of the Trek story; but believe me when I say, I had no trouble waiting at the end of a season set for the next season set to come out.

You spent 700 bucks on a tv show you don't even like? Puts the thousands I've spent on strippers and prostitutes in perspective.

Seriously, I love all 7 seasons of The Sopranos (best. show. ever.) and I only bought the last two DVD sets because I could get them at one third the suggested retail price.

 

[Jeri]

Angel4576, but you're not disagreeing with me about Berman. That's the point: he does play it safe, and that's why DS-9 was no gamble; doing something different made more sense at the time. And they came back to the NG well, because they did learn something from DS-9: that even with Star Trek in the name and a built-in fan base, it came in second to Xena.

 

[Angel4576]

Coming in second to Xena doesn't really mean that much. All of Trek was pretty much trouced by Baywatch.

Re Berman, I think we can both agree that he'd opt to play any situation safe, but we'd be underplaying the influence that Mike Piller had on bringing him around to the idea of doing something different. Berman's never shown any indiciation of being willing to try anything remotely different, before or after.

We can also point to the fact that DS9 got even darker, and even more arc-intensive, and character-driven when Berman was focussed on setting up Voyager. If for nothing else, we can be grateful to Voyager for that, thanks for running interference!

 

[Jeri]

Brutal Strudel said:
You spent 700 bucks on a tv show you don't even like? Puts the thousands I've spent on strippers and prostitutes in perspective.

Seriously, I love all 7 seasons of The Sopranos (best. show. ever.) and I only bought the last two DVD sets because I could get them at one third the suggested retail price.

If I'd known they were going to be half price, I might have waited, too. (VOY was still full price last time I looked, and the 7-season VOY set has been a good seller at Amazon, I've noticed.)

But probably not. I was really interested to know what happened in that part of the Trek story; and in fact, I still keep an open mind that I will like it some day. I don't like BSG either, but I've got the HD DVD set on pre-order at Amazon. I at least like to be aware of what I'm talking about.

 

[Jeri]

Angel4576 said:
We can also point to the fact that DS9 got even darker, and even more arc-intensive, and character-driven when Berman was focussed on setting up Voyager. If for nothing else, we can be grateful to Voyager for that, thanks for running interference!

Oh, for pete's sake. DS-9 is not dark. Right from "Emissary," it's clear there's a deus ex machina in the wings and that nothing permanently bad is going to happen.

 

[Angel4576]

Jeri said:

Angel4576 said:
We can also point to the fact that DS9 got even darker, and even more arc-intensive, and character-driven when Berman was focussed on setting up Voyager. If for nothing else, we can be grateful to Voyager for that, thanks for running interference!

Oh, for pete's sake. DS-9 is not dark. Right from "Emissary," it's clear there's a deus ex machina in the wings and that nothing permanently bad is going to happen.

Hmm, wives killed, legs blown off, a war almost entirely fought on the back foot, moral ambiguity abound, billions killed, attacks against Earth, the whole balance of power in the quadrant in a state of flux.

Now, all done in a happy, fluffy way?

In the Pale Moonlight, The Siege of AR-558, Homefront, Paradise Lost, just a few examples. Unrivalled.

As for nothing permanently bad, don't really know how you come to that conclusion, given that by the time the series comes to a close billions are dead, regular characters have been killed off not to be suddenly resurrected, the balance of power in the AQ completely redefined, the Maquis completely wiped out, the Cardassians pretty much all but eliminated as a major power. Funny, I don't remember any of that being reset.

 

[Jeri]

Angel4576 , What about that is dark? The main characters come to the end of the show with a Dax missing (Tasha, Kes, Trip). I don't have any more grief for the supposed real dead than the supposed reset dead. They're all fictional and at the time of their passing, I feel the same for them. I feel worse, for example, over the loss of the fake Voyager crew than the death of Sisko's wife, whom I had no relationship with. I feel sorry for Sisko, but I felt sorry for Riker's family life, too.

 

[Angel4576]

Alternatively, what about In the Pale Moonlight, The Siege of AR-558 and Homefront/Paradise Lost isn't dark?

Dax, Ziyal, Damar, Weyoun, Dukat, Winn, all major players from DS9, dead by the end of the series. TNG lost one character? Voyager lost one character? Did Kes even die? Trip is killed off in an off-hand kind of way in a final episode? The deaths in DS9 were largely dramatised as consequences of war, Damar's in particular, a character than started out life as a one-dimensional pantomime villain, who by the end of the series had become an inspirational leader to his people's resistance, only to be killed just short of seeing his people freed.

Looking at the deaths throughout the other series, Tasha Yar, killed off because Denise Crosby wanted off of the series. Jennifer Lien/Kes, killed off to make way for Jeri Ryan/Seven, Trip, killed in a misguided attempt to give emotional weight to a weak finale. Of the characters killed in DS9, only Terry Farrell/Dax was killed off for purposes other than the narrative.

DS9's whole backdrop is against an interstellar war, one that for the duration of the series they're losing. Again, this is fluffy and light how exactly? How many of the other series have shown the first hand effects of Starfleet being engaged in a war? How many have shown actual land engagements? This isn't depressing how exactly?

Which of the other shows have employed duplicity and subterfuge to the extent by which DS9 has? How many of them have had similar levels of moral ambiguity?

I wasn't even thinking of Sisko's situation, a single parent in Star Trek? My God! How'd that one get past them?

Being dark isn't just about the loss of characters. It's the tone of the series, the internal conflict, look at Voyager for example, DS9 set up the Maquis situation so that you'd have ready-made tension amongst the crew when the Maquis crew joined the Starfleet contingent, and what did we get? One episode's worth of conflict and then everyone gets along like there's never been an issue.

The fact that DS9 is the darkest part of the Star Trek universe is undeniable. Even at the height of what should have been the darkest hour in TNG, The Best of Both Worlds, everything was nice, clean and sterile. Voyager occasionally flirted with the concept of going darker, Year of Hell springs to mind, but DS9 situated itself there for the majority of it's run. Even when they won the war it was a pretty hollow victory, not the totally decisive ass-whooping/backslapping that would have happened on any other incarnation of Star Trek.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Jeri said:

So no, I don't think the reason there are so many fans here is that it's a decent show, as you said. Something else is at work; and until the board becomes representative of the outside fandom, then you will go on hearing people wonder why.

"Something else is at work"???

Like what? A vast left-wing conspiracy?

An axis of evil Niners, bent on planetary domination?

The show actually sucks, but we are gathering here like a terrorist cell, for the sole purpose of pissing you off by winning an occasional poll?

I mean, seriously. For all the complaining some fans do about the 'evil Niners' and all of this so-called bias we supposedly enjoy, it is NOT these 'evil Niners' who continue to perpetrate the bad karma. I mean, think about what you are saying here: The fact that there are alot of Niners here couldn't POSSIBLY be because DS9 is a decent show. It MUST be because some malevolent force is at work.

As I said, you didn't hear the Niners whining and moaning when TOS and TNG won the episode polling. Because ya kow what? We GET it! We GET that it's only a silly poll on an internet message board - nothing more. And certainly not anything worth carrying around a grudge the size of Montana for 6 years over.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ Voyager fans. Inferiority complex. Understandable.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Guys, please try to keep this focused on the shows themselves and not the fans of those shows.

 

[Venardhi]

TrekAlliance92 said:
DS9. It had a promising start with the first three seasons and Trek-like episodes such as "Move Along Home," "Second Sight," "Q-Less".

You consider "Move Along Home" a good episode? Wow. . .


Like, seriously. . .


WOW.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

^

ALAMARAIN! ALAMARAIN! COUNT TO FOUR!

 

[AdmiralGarak]

PKTrekGirl said:
The show actually sucks, but we are gathering here like a terrorist cell, for the sole purpose of pissing you off by winning an occasional poll?

Shh! You're giving away the secre... Err... I m-mean, how dare you accuse Niners of voting for total crap just to piss people off. The very idea that you could pose a poll comparing something absolutely brilliant to pure DS9 crap is insulting. And, now for a completely unrelated poll...

 

[Angel4576]

^^ P&L, a very underrated episode in the grand scheme of Trek, certainly gets my vote.....

Can't even remember what the other one's about. Is it any good?

 

[AdmiralGarak]

^Nah. Basically, Bones O.D.s on drugs and Kirk makes a deal with some sort of talking doorway to chase him into the past. Then Kirk falls in love with some chick that gets everybody conquered by the Nazis. He eventually lets her get hit by a truck because he didn't feel like saving her. The whole thing is basically a cruel slam on our nations Doctors, health care workers, and rice pickers.