Just Started Avatar The Last Airbender

[CaptainCanada]

Lightning-bending is just advanced Firebending; Ozai and Iroh both do it too, so one imagines Ozai (or another high-level instructor) taught her.

 

[Christopher]

Azula probably learned it from Ozai. She and Iroh never seemed to have much use for each other. Besides, Iroh was off leading the Fire Nation army for much of Azula's childhood.

I imagine that if Iroh had played more of a role in Azula's formative years, she would've turned out better.

 

[Thestral]

Spoiler: Sozin's Comet

ETA: Good point about potential since Toph, Zuko, and Aang already had to potential. But bouldn't the potential then come from a revived society of Air Nomads?

After all, Toph learned earthbending from the badgermoles, and Zuko and Aang learned firebending from the dragons, so we know it's not just a legendary long-past possibility.

Spoiler: ditto

But they were all born with the innate inclination for their respective bending abilities. Again, don't confuse being capable of bending with knowing how to bend. Toph was born with exceptional bending ability, but she needed to learn how to use it from the badger-moles. Zuko was born with firebending ability, and he learned the basic techniques for using that ability from his teachers, but he needed to learn the special techniques first from Iroh and then from the dragons. And Aang was able to learn new kinds of bending because he was the Avatar and thus born with the potential to master all four elements, but he didn't know how to use that potential until he was taught.

So if Toph had tried to learn firebending from the dragons, or if Zuko had tried to learn earthbending from the badger-moles, it wouldn't have worked, because they didn't have the right potential. So Appa couldn't teach airbending to someone from the Water Tribe or the Fire Nation or the Earth Kingdom -- not until Aang used energy-bending to modify their chi and turn them into potential airbenders.

Come to think of it, there's an issue the show never addressed. Appa's the last of the sky bisons. Unless there's a hidden enclave of them somewhere, their species is just a few decades at most from extinction. That's sad to think about.

Spoiler: ditto

I can accept that logically I suppose. I don't have to like it, but it makes sense from what we've seen. But I think to some extent I'm right too, because at some point in the past people had to "settle" into one element or the other; so over generations of living as Air Nomads the ability to airbend might manifest, right? But perhaps not in time to continue the avatar cycle, and Aang's energybending would secure the continuance. Hopefully the energybending would die out again with Aang though, that seems like too much of a power to be widespread.

And I agree, that's very sad that the sky bisons might be gone once Appa dies. Maybe Aang in his travels will find a hidden enclave.

Spoiler: Sozin's Comet

ETA: Good point about potential since Toph, Zuko, and Aang already had to potential. But bouldn't the potential then come from a revived society of Air Nomads?

After all, Toph learned earthbending from the badgermoles, and Zuko and Aang learned firebending from the dragons, so we know it's not just a legendary long-past possibility.

Spoiler: ditto

But they were all born with the innate inclination for their respective bending abilities. Again, don't confuse being capable of bending with knowing how to bend. Toph was born with exceptional bending ability, but she needed to learn how to use it from the badger-moles. Zuko was born with firebending ability, and he learned the basic techniques for using that ability from his teachers, but he needed to learn the special techniques first from Iroh and then from the dragons. And Aang was able to learn new kinds of bending because he was the Avatar and thus born with the potential to master all four elements, but he didn't know how to use that potential until he was taught.

So if Toph had tried to learn firebending from the dragons, or if Zuko had tried to learn earthbending from the badger-moles, it wouldn't have worked, because they didn't have the right potential. So Appa couldn't teach airbending to someone from the Water Tribe or the Fire Nation or the Earth Kingdom -- not until Aang used energy-bending to modify their chi and turn them into potential airbenders.

Come to think of it, there's an issue the show never addressed. Appa's the last of the sky bisons. Unless there's a hidden enclave of them somewhere, their species is just a few decades at most from extinction. That's sad to think about.

True, but there are no more Dragons(wink, wink) either but Fire Benders just learn from other Fire Benders how to master their craft now. I just wonder who taught Azula the skill of using Lighting.

I think it's the sadness at losing the sky bisons more than the lost teachers of airbending, though.

Azula probably learned it from Ozai. She and Iroh never seemed to have much use for each other. Besides, Iroh was off leading the Fire Nation army for much of Azula's childhood.

I imagine that if Iroh had played more of a role in Azula's formative years, she would've turned out better.

I'd like to think so, considering what we know about Azula's childhood - The Beach gives us a glimpse of a different Azula. A niggling question I have after what we've learned is why didn't Azula and Zuko's mother have a bigger role in her formative years? Or at least, I wonder what turned her against Azula. Mr Light, how close are you to being done yet?

 

[Mr Light]

I'm still 8 minutes into "Southern Raiders" I'm savoring them as long as possible. I only watch them when I wake up before my alarm in the morning and I've been sleeping in lately. I'm sure I'll see 2 episodes tomorrow morning, which would leave me down to the 4 part finale I believe *sob*

 

[Christopher]

Spoiler: ditto

I can accept that logically I suppose. I don't have to like it, but it makes sense from what we've seen. But I think to some extent I'm right too, because at some point in the past people had to "settle" into one element or the other; so over generations of living as Air Nomads the ability to airbend might manifest, right? But perhaps not in time to continue the avatar cycle, and Aang's energybending would secure the continuance. Hopefully the energybending would die out again with Aang though, that seems like too much of a power to be widespread.

I still think you're looking at this from too much of a real-world paradigm rather than a fantasy-mythological paradigm. The origins of the four nations and their bending proclivities are probably more the stuff of creation myths than the stuff of rational historiography and sociology. The nations were probably destined from the start to develop along their particular paths, both culturally and spiritually. So it's not that they developed a certain culture and the bending inclinations grew out of that.

We're dealing with Asian philosophy here, and the key concepts are chi, the spiritual energy that's the essence of a being; balance, as expressed by yin and yang; and the concept of a proper path or role for every individual and group, as embodied in such Asian philosophies as Taoism (Tao = "the Way") and Confucianism (the idea that there's a proper hierarchy and a proper way for each tier of the hierarchy to behave). The Avatar is the linchpin of the world, and his destiny is to preserve balance between the four nations, nations that must exist in mutual balance, embodying the four fundamental elements of nature. It's all very metaphysical.

I think it's the sadness at losing the sky bisons more than the lost teachers of airbending, though.

Yes, that's what I meant.

A niggling question I have after what we've learned is why didn't Azula and Zuko's mother have a bigger role in her formative years? Or at least, I wonder what turned her against Azula.

I don't remember in detail, but thinking about it, my impression would be that Azula just never cared much for her mother; temperamentally, she had more affinity for Ozai. She probably found Ursa too gentle and weak and cloying.

Azula is basically a psychopath, or at least a sociopath (the distinction is basically that the former is something you're born with and the latter is a learned behavior). She doesn't feel empathy for others. Ursa was a loving mother, but love meant nothing to Azula. She would've been more interested in power, control, manipulation of others, and that would've given her more in common with Ozai.

 

[Mr Light]

OK, woke up early and had a 3 episode marathon. I've seen the first part of "Sozin's Comet"! I'm very glad that the finale is going to take place in the Earth Kingdom. In retrospect I found Season 2 and the setting of Ba Sing She to be the high point of the series. I'm glad we're going back there for the ending. I've also been wondering for awhile now why the spirit world was completely dropped from the show so it's nice to see an eleventh hour return to it (I'm assuming Aaang's moving island is spirit-connected). Ugh... only three left... Oh yeah, "Ember Island Day Players" was a very funny episode. An excellent final jokey episode before the final plunge. I'm glad they had a discussing about killing Ozai. I'm going to guess that Aang will wuss out but then Zuko/Azula/Iroh will step in and kill the bastard. Don't tell me!

 

[Christopher]

"Wuss out?" No. Any coward or weakling can kill. It takes more courage, strength, and intelligence to find another option.

 

[Mr Light]

Yeah but Ozai is an irredeemable monster with super powers who wants to conquer the world and kill all non Fire-folk. No prison can contain him!

 

[Christopher]

Just wait... you'll see.

 

[Thestral]

I still think you're looking at this from too much of a real-world paradigm rather than a fantasy-mythological paradigm. The origins of the four nations and their bending proclivities are probably more the stuff of creation myths than the stuff of rational historiography and sociology. The nations were probably destined from the start to develop along their particular paths, both culturally and spiritually. So it's not that they developed a certain culture and the bending inclinations grew out of that.

We're dealing with Asian philosophy here, and the key concepts are chi, the spiritual energy that's the essence of a being; balance, as expressed by yin and yang; and the concept of a proper path or role for every individual and group, as embodied in such Asian philosophies as Taoism (Tao = "the Way") and Confucianism (the idea that there's a proper hierarchy and a proper way for each tier of the hierarchy to behave). The Avatar is the linchpin of the world, and his destiny is to preserve balance between the four nations, nations that must exist in mutual balance, embodying the four fundamental elements of nature. It's all very metaphysical.

I understand all that (though thanks for the reminder about Confucianism, which I didn't take into account), and you're probably right about me thinking of this all too much in "real-world" terms. But I can accept everything, including a Princess who gives her life to become the Moon when the old moon's mortal form is destroyed, and the final ending of Sozin's Comet, except for some reason this particular idea. It just feels too unbalancing to have that sort of power to

Spoiler: Sozin's Comet

be able to change the chi/proper way of individuals and reshape them. It strikes me as one thing to remove bending, since there's Fire Nation people who can't bend, and another to change somebody like that from Fire Nation/Earth Kingdom/Water Tribe to Air Nomads. But I'm willing to let it go and accept the possibility. Ultimately it's not that important, since we both agree that Aang somehow will restore that balance as will.

I don't remember in detail, but thinking about it, my impression would be that Azula just never cared much for her mother; temperamentally, she had more affinity for Ozai. She probably found Ursa too gentle and weak and cloying.

Azula is basically a psychopath, or at least a sociopath (the distinction is basically that the former is something you're born with and the latter is a learned behavior). She doesn't feel empathy for others. Ursa was a loving mother, but love meant nothing to Azula. She would've been more interested in power, control, manipulation of others, and that would've given her more in common with Ozai.

I'd prefer to think sociopath. The Beach gives us a hint, just a hint, of a different Azula, especially in regards to her relationship with Ursa. And her ultimate fate and what leads to it makes me think that some part of her wasn't (though is now) interested in power, control, and manipulation. It's not so much that Azula's become a sociopath, it's that I wonder what led Ursa to treat her daughter with less love than Zuko, or regard her with fear.

Also, how would Iroh have helped? Is it because he's clearly both powerful and compassionate that you think he might've helped?

OK, woke up early and had a 3 episode marathon. I've seen the first part of "Sozin's Comet"! I'm very glad that the finale is going to take place in the Earth Kingdom. In retrospect I found Season 2 and the setting of Ba Sing She to be the high point of the series. I'm glad we're going back there for the ending. I've also been wondering for awhile now why the spirit world was completely dropped from the show so it's nice to see an eleventh hour return to it (I'm assuming Aaang's moving island is spirit-connected). Ugh... only three left... Oh yeah, "Ember Island Day Players" was a very funny episode. An excellent final jokey episode before the final plunge. I'm glad they had a discussing about killing Ozai. I'm going to guess that Aang will wuss out but then Zuko/Azula/Iroh will step in and kill the bastard. Don't tell me!

Like Chris said, you'll see...

And likewise with the nature of the island; I agree with you about the lack of the Spirit World in Season 3. In particular there's an antagonist I really wish we'd gotten the chance to see again and who will make a guest appearance in flashback, but alas...

One of the things I liked about Ember Island Players was the way it played with metatextuality, especially in Aang's relationship with Katara. I wouldn't be surprised to find out there was a fair-sized contingent of fans who wished that Avatar:TLA had ultimately gone the direction of Katara and Zuko getting together in the end because Katara thought of Aang as "a kid brother" (and leaving poor Mai out to dry I imagine?). But before The Ember Island Players there was no indication of that (maybe The Southern Raiders?), or especially of Aang fearing that, until it was suggested to him by what amounts to organized Fire Nation fanfiction. What struck me is having the Ember Island Players introduce that suggestion, forcing Aang to deal with an artificially-induced fear, was to some extent breaking the fourth wall from the outside.

(Well, then of course it led to a good scene between Aang and Katara where we get to see his self-doubt and imperfectness.)

Sokka's influence on his own legacy in the Fire Nation was fun too, and Toph's reaction to everything - including her own character's mangling!

What were your thoughts ultimately on The Southern Raiders?
I found myself frustrated with it, because I thought it was a really important episode for the subject matter it dealt with, and there were some very important revelations and points made and the solution was excellent - but there were some things about it that just didn't feel complete to me, like it could've used a bit.

 

[Kelthaz]

"Wuss out?" No. Any coward or weakling can kill. It takes more courage, strength, and intelligence to find another option.

Ooh, I so want to address this. Come on Mr. Light, watch faster.

 

[Christopher]

But I can accept everything, including a Princess who gives her life to become the Moon when the old moon's mortal form is destroyed, and the final ending of Sozin's Comet, except for some reason this particular idea. It just feels too unbalancing to have that sort of power to

Spoiler: Sozin's Comet

be able to change the chi/proper way of individuals and reshape them. It strikes me as one thing to remove bending, since there's Fire Nation people who can't bend, and another to change somebody like that from Fire Nation/Earth Kingdom/Water Tribe to Air Nomads. But I'm willing to let it go and accept the possibility. Ultimately it's not that important, since we both agree that Aang somehow will restore that balance as will.

Spoiler: The usual

Well, it is the Avatar's role in the world to preserve its balance. That balance has been almost destroyed by the actions of Azulon and his heirs, and so it's Aang's destiny to restore it. It stands to reason that he should be endowed with the power to do so.

And I'm sure he wouldn't do it coercively. I think if people volunteer for it, probably people who don't have bending ability of their own anyway, then there'd be nothing ethically or spiritually wrong about it.

I'd prefer to think sociopath. The Beach gives us a hint, just a hint, of a different Azula, especially in regards to her relationship with Ursa. And her ultimate fate and what leads to it makes me think that some part of her wasn't (though is now) interested in power, control, and manipulation. It's not so much that Azula's become a sociopath, it's that I wonder what led Ursa to treat her daughter with less love than Zuko, or regard her with fear.

What I'm saying is, I don't think Ursa's the one to blame. I think she offered both her children equal love, but Azula rejected it.

I have a suspicion, or rather a speculation -- one that I very much doubt will ever be concerned or addressed.

Spoiler: Maybe no reason to tag this, but just in case

I wonder if Ozai might have sexually or at least emotionally abused his daughter from a very early age. That's the sort of thing that could turn her into a violent sociopath. And abused children often bond more strongly with the abusing parent than the other parent, for fear of what will happen if they don't show loyalty.

Also, how would Iroh have helped? Is it because he's clearly both powerful and compassionate that you think he might've helped?

Look at where Zuko was at the start of the series, and look where he ended up by the finale. That's what Iroh's influence can do for a troubled, angry child.

In fact, I'd like to think that

Spoiler: Here we go again

maybe after the finale, with Azula totally broken, Iroh might take it upon himself to try to rehabilitate and redeem her. She could be capable of great things if she could be healed and reformed. But I'm not sure Iroh would do that, since he's the one who said Azula was crazy and had to be taken down. He didn't seem to have a lot of patience with her.

 

[Mr Light]

"Southern Raiders" I thought was going to be one huge flashback episode with just a framing device so I was a little disappointed how brief the flashbacks were. Still, seeing Katara go renegade was nice; she even blood-bended again! I was surprised Zuko didn't kill the guy for her; I kept expecting them to turn their backs and walk away and the guy tries to flame her back and Zuko spins around and flambes him. Kudos for not taking the easy route.

 

[exodus]

What I'm saying is, I don't think Ursa's the one to blame. I think she offered both her children equal love, but Azula rejected it.

I have a suspicion, or rather a speculation -- one that I very much doubt will ever be concerned or addressed.

Spoiler: Maybe no reason to tag this, but just in case

I wonder if Ozai might have sexually or at least emotionally abused his daughter from a very early age. That's the sort of thing that could turn her into a violent sociopath. And abused children often bond more strongly with the abusing parent than the other parent, for fear of what will happen if they don't show loyalty.

No, I have to say I don't agree.
It was never shown or implied that this happened or that Azula rejected her moms love. She's a sybling that fits the profile of the aggressive over achiever and Daddy's little girl. Notice how in Ozai eye's she can do no wrong. By doing so, he's encouraged her competitive aggression by rewarding it with affection and praise. He cements it by humiliating Zuko's efforts constantly in front of her. That's what's given her a wicked ego and blatant disregard to those she feels are beneath her. She confuses fear with adoration.

 

[Graywand2]

Exodus, the woman is a sociopath. In the Day of Black Sun, Toph listened to her heartbeat when she lied to prove she could lie. Toph all but said her heartbeat and breathing didn't change one iota. The only humans capable of that are sociopaths. I don't think she cares about Ozai any more than she cared about Zuko or Ursa.

 

[CaptainCanada]

I'd disagree there. She's clearly a big fan of her dad, and has strong emotional investment in her friends, even if she's also cruel and abusive.

 

[Graywand2]

That's an act. It has to be. Azula's investment in her father would only have lasted as long as it suited her. I don't think she gave a rat's ass about Ty Lee and Mai, her emotional investment in them being a ploy to trick them into thinking she cared about them so she could use their skills to her own ends. The reason her instability started to come upon her was that she had managed to convince herself that she had thoroughly programmed them to her whims. They're revolt shattered that perception and she couldn't handle it. She eventually started to breakdown, which was exacerbated by the Agni Kai and turned her into the weeping mess on the floor of the courtyard of the Palace.

 

[Christopher]

I'd disagree there. She's clearly a big fan of her dad, and has strong emotional investment in her friends, even if she's also cruel and abusive.

I wouldn't put it quite that way. Azula craves her father's approval, his recognition of her worth. She also craves his power and intends to share in it, even inherit it. As for Mai and Ty Lee, she only values them insofar as they submit to her and make her feel appreciated. She's a pathological narcissist; her every relationship is ultimately self-directed, and other people only matter to her insofar as they can boost her ego and sense of superiority.

Spoiler: Azula's fate

This is what destroys her in the end. One by one, all her sources of affirmation are taken from her. Mai defies her to stand with Zuko, and Ty Lee defies her to stand with Mai. This leaves Ozai as her only source of self-affirmation, but instead of making her feel important and special, he shunts her aside carelessly as he goes off to achieve his glory, excluding her totally from it. With her sources of approval thus stripped away, she begins to unravel. And then, when she's finally defeated by a lowly Water-Tribe girl, it totally shatters her ego structure.

 

[Mr Light]

I have now finished the series. Now I am sad Definitely the greatest animated series ever. Better than Batman and Gargoyles and Justice League and Spider-Man and all that. High quality animation, perfect blend of humor and dark storytelling, morally ambiguous, great characters, great premise, great powers and action scenes, it's got it all.

So many of my favorite stories end up having disappointing endings. Babylon 5. Lord of the Rings. Star Wars OT. Pirates Caribbean. Matrix Revolutions. The Preacher comic book. In fact before now I'd say there was only story with a truly satisfying ending, the Bone comic book. But now Avatar can rank on that list.

My only complaints on the finale are minor. I wish that the entire group had faced Ozai together. I feel that Aang being able to neutralize Ozai's powers was a little too convenient. It seems a little easy that nobody died in the final battle. But aside from that, perfection!

The final (and first, actually) duel between Aang and Ozai was incredible. Epic. Loved the setting of the rock fingers. Loved how Ozai was flying around on fire like that. Loved the super charged fire powers.

The Zuko/Azula duel was also wonderful. I didn't mind the way that Azula self-destructed on her own emotionally as it made perfect sense for the character. Christopher, I don't see the sexual abuse angle at all. I think she and her father were just totally corrupted by the fire-bending and the way they were raised. They've explained the way that fire-bending warps your mind towards cruelty and lust for power. Azula and Ozai are just the prime examples of that.

Hey I just realized something, we never found out if Zuko's mother was alive or not!

The airship fleet sequence was great as well. Everybody gets a moment to shine. Although I have to say, Suki was a total waste of a character joining the crew. She doens't talk, she doesn't really have a personality, she's just there to kiss Sokka.

I wish there was some kind of follow up story. I want to see how the world healed after the war. How Zuko ruled the Fire Nation. Did Aang neutralize Azula's power as well? I hope so. Did Zuko find his mom? Do Aaang and Katara live happily ever after? Is Appa the final sky bison to ever live?

I also feel that Aang being able to steal people's powers is a very sticky wicket. That's definitely something that could corrupt you. It's a much more slippery slope since he can justify it since it doesn't kill them. What if he goes around stealing the power of ever Fire criminal? Wouldn't the Fire Nation eventually turn on him? And Zuko?

 

[Christopher]

Christopher, I don't see the sexual abuse angle at all. I think she and her father were just totally corrupted by the fire-bending and the way they were raised. They've explained the way that fire-bending warps your mind towards cruelty and lust for power. Azula and Ozai are just the prime examples of that.

But we've also seen plenty of nobler firebenders. It doesn't intrinsically warp your mind; it's just that Azulon and his heirs embraced a form of firebending that was driven by anger and instilled that as the cultural norm. And even that doesn't explain a narcissistic sociopath like Azula, since we saw plenty of firebenders who turned out all right.

I don't claim there's any solid evidence that Azula was abused by her father. I admit it's an out-there hypothesis and obviously not something that would've been overt in the text of a family show. But it's a hypothesis that fits the evidence we have, though not the only one that does. There were one or two moments when she was inappropriately seductive toward Zuko, such as at the start of the third season when he confronted her in her bedroom and asked why she let him take the credit for killing the Avatar. The fact that she'd attempt sexual manipulation of a member of her family suggests that she had to learn that behavior somewhere, perhaps because it was done to her. Also, just in general, she's surprisingly mature for a 14-year-old girl. Abused children tend to grow up fast, because they aren't really allowed to have a childhood. I'm not saying it has to be the case, but it would explain a lot.

I also feel that Aang being able to steal people's powers is a very sticky wicket. That's definitely something that could corrupt you. It's a much more slippery slope since he can justify it since it doesn't kill them. What if he goes around stealing the power of ever Fire criminal? Wouldn't the Fire Nation eventually turn on him? And Zuko?

I suspect that energy-bending is something that requires an advanced state of enlightenment to achieve. If Aang's motives or methods became corrupt, he'd probably lose the ability.

Martial arts are fundamentally about the mastery of power -- about learning how to use power wisely and constructively. The Avatar has to learn how to master four radically different forms of power and control and bring them into harmony, giving him or her greater insight into the mastery of power and the understanding of balance than just about anyone else. So
Aang wouldn't be blind to the potential for abuse and would have the training and the tools to check himself against temptation.

Plus, if he did begin to stray, he's got Katara to remind him of what's right, Sokka to keep him grounded, and Toph to knock some sense into him. Not to mention Zuko, who's the yin to his yang, his counterbalance. It's their destiny to restore balance together, Avatar Aang restoring the spiritual balance while Fire Lord Zuko restores the political balance by bringing the Fire Nation back into harmony with the others. If one of them abused his position, the other would be there to counter him. Zuko wouldn't allow Aang to treat the Fire Nation that way.