Spoilers It’s Official... (probably TV spoilers here too)

[OCD Geek]

That's why I like the way Joss Whedon handled finales, and the way many shows since have followed his lead. He almost always wrote his finales to work as either a season finale laying groundwork for what lay ahead or a series finale that provided reasonable closure in the event of cancellation. It's smarter to prepare for both options than to just assume you'll get renewed and leave things hanging. I don't blame the networks for things like that, because they don't make renewal and cancellation decisions on a whim, but based on what they literally can or cannot afford to pay for, so they usually have little choice in the matter. I'd say it's up to the showrunners to be realistic about their prospects and prepare for contingencies. The only time when it would make sense to get mad at the network is if they did actually promise renewal and then reneged.

I think "open ended closure" is totally the way to go if you're planning a movie trilogy or something like that too. Work as a great standalone movie that could lead to more if the opportunity knocks. This way if you get your two intended sequels (i.e. Star Wars), huzzah. But if those sequels end up being a fart in the wind (i.e. Firefly/Serenity) it sucks but isn't the end of the world. Really handy too for fans if the sequels end up completely shitting the bed (i.e. The Matrix).

 

[The Wormhole]

Because the novels are better. We don't care about anyone else

But the point still stands, no one else tries to be consistent with the Litverse. Not IDW's comics, not STO, not David Goodman's history of the Federation book or his autobiographies of Kirk and Picard, not even William Shatner's novels (which were also published by Pocket). So I don't get why anyone should be surprised that an actual televised production isn't consistent with the Litverse either.

 

[Christopher]

I think "open ended closure" is totally the way to go if you're planning a movie trilogy or something like that too. Work as a great standalone movie that could lead to more if the opportunity knocks.

Yes. There are too many cases of studios trying to start a blockbuster trilogy/franchise, assuming they'd get multiple films to tell their story, and thus wasting the first film on setup rather than making it complete in itself, so it was unsatisfying and didn't do well enough to get the planned sequels. (Tom Cruise's The Mummy is perhaps the most infamous example; The Amazing Spider-Man 2 basically fits as well, though of course it wasn't the first film in its series.)

Besides, I've always felt that if you're going to tell a story in distinct installments that come out with a fair amount of time between them, like novels or movies, it's best to tell the story in a way that naturally divides into distinct segments with their own beginning and end, so the audience gets some satisfying closure and it's not like the story just stops at an arbitrary point. (Like the Hobbit film trilogy. When I went to see the third film, it felt like it was just the second film resuming after a year-long intermission.)

 

[Extrocomp]

But the point still stands, no one else tries to be consistent with the Litverse. Not IDW's comics, not STO, not David Goodman's history of the Federation book or his autobiographies of Kirk and Picard, not even William Shatner's novels (which were also published by Pocket). So I don't get why anyone should be surprised that an actual televised production isn't consistent with the Litverse either.

William Shatner's novels did try to be consistent with the Novelverse. Captain's Glory had Miranda Kadohata, Aili Lavena Xin Ra-Havreii and Christine Vale in it. In every instance where the Shatnerverse is inconsistent with the Novelverse such as the year of Bajor's admission to the Federation, it was a Novelverse book (Unity 2003) contradicting a previously published Shatnerverse book (Captain's Peril 2002).

So the Shatnerverse wanted to be part of the Novelverse, but the Novelverse kept saying "no, get away from me".

 

[Christopher]

William Shatner's novels did try to be consistent with the Novelverse. Captain's Glory had Miranda Kadohata, Aili Lavena Xin Ra-Havreii and Christine Vale in it. In every instance where the Shatnerverse is inconsistent with the Novelverse such as the year of Bajor's admission to the Federation, it was a Novelverse book (Unity 2003) contradicting a previously published Shatnerverse book (Captain's Peril 2002). So the Shatnerverse wanted to be part of the Novelverse, but the Novelverse kept saying "no, get away from me".

That's not quite true. Yes, that one book did borrow Titan characters, but it used them in a way that contradicted the storyline of the three previously published TTN novels. In those novels, Titan helped out at Romulus in December '79 (Taking Wing), got whooshed to the Small Magellanic Cloud for most of January '80 (The Red King), and had started its primary mission of exploring uncharted space by March '80 (Orion's Hounds), at which point it promptly made first contacts with a number of new species. But in Captain's Glory (published 7 months after Orion's Hounds), Titan stayed at Romulus for pretty much the whole of 2380 and didn't make its inaugural first contact until halfway through 2381 (around the time Over a Torrent Sea happens in the TTN novels).

Borrowing characters from another work of fiction is not synonymous with sharing its continuity, since fictional characters are just ideas and can be plugged into any continuity (see Jimmy Olsen, Harley Quinn, X-23, Phil Coulson, Grand Admiral Thrawn, etc. -- or for that matter, see all the contradictory Trek tie-ins that use the same canon characters). And none of the earlier Shatner books borrowed from the other novels. The use of Titan characters wasn't the Shatnerverse trying to be "part of the Novelverse," it was the Shatnerverse borrowing elements from the novels that it found useful for itself, and reinterpreting them in its own way. The Shatner/Reeves-Stevens novels were written for a different audience than the main paperback novel line -- a more mainstream audience looking for hardcover blockbusters by celebrity authors -- and since the two lines were not going to be read by all the same people, it was decided that it was best to let them strike their own independent courses and not be restrained by each other's choices.

Recall that some years back, there was a Star Trek exhibit of some kind that used the Titan design created for the novels and made a short film with Tim Russ, borrowing the novels' concept that Tuvok had joined Titan's crew -- yet it also contradicted the novels by putting Wesley Crusher on Titan as well. The reason these different things borrowed characters, designs, etc. from the Titan novels wasn't because they wanted to be in the novel continuity, but just because that was the only established version of the Titan so it was convenient to draw on its ideas.

 

[Damian]

But the point still stands, no one else tries to be consistent with the Litverse. Not IDW's comics, not STO, not David Goodman's history of the Federation book or his autobiographies of Kirk and Picard, not even William Shatner's novels (which were also published by Pocket). So I don't get why anyone should be surprised that an actual televised production isn't consistent with the Litverse either.

I was just kidding.

I'm not surprised it's not consistent. I had held out some hope that perhaps the novel verse could continue in some fashion not necessarily because Picard picked up where they left off (though that would be nice for me and others like me, I never actually expected that would happen unless the showrunners loved the ongoing litverse as much as we did and really wanted to pick up where they left off). But because maybe the intervening years were left vague enough you could fill in whatever history between Nemesis and Picard you wished to. It depending on what the focus of the show would be.

But it sounds like there's very little of the existing litverse can continue and be consistent with Picard without it simply being a parallel universe of some sort.

Honestly I want my cake and I want to eat it too. I'd never sacrifice an actual Star Trek show (well, unless it was a terrible show I guess--it would be a shame if the litverse had to stop for a bad show--though I guess if it were truly that bad the show would be cancelled and I suppose S&S could just continue business as usual---to be clear, I'm NOT hoping for that scenario--I want the show to be good). AND I'd love to be able to see the relaunches continue AS a parallel timeline, even if it were an e-book only format. We Star Trek fans are a smart bunch usually. We can follow two separate timelines featuring some of the same characters. But I know that's probably unlikely (though David Mack's interview about his last book holds out a sliver of some hope in that they are floating some ideas around--they're not totally DOA).

 

[The Wormhole]

Recall that some years back, there was a Star Trek exhibit of some kind that used the Titan design created for the novels and made a short film with Tim Russ, borrowing the novels' concept that Tuvok had joined Titan's crew -- yet it also contradicted the novels by putting Wesley Crusher on Titan as well. The reason these different things borrowed characters, designs, etc. from the Titan novels wasn't because they wanted to be in the novel continuity, but just because that was the only established version of the Titan so it was convenient to draw on its ideas.

Or then there was Brannon Braga's Hive comic series from IDW, which does feature the Titan using the same design as the novels, and when we see the Titan's bridge, Tuvok is there as is someone who seems to match Vale's description. But Hive is otherwise completely incompatible with the Litverse.

 

[DimesDan]

None of it happened. All of it happened.

My books are still on their shelves, they've not disappeared since last Thursday and it's all fictional anyway, which leads back to none of it happening and all of it happening.

 

[Christopher]

Pursuant to revelations in Picard episode 2, have any tie-ins ever depicted Romulans using AIs or androids?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Pursuant to revelations in Picard episode 2, have any tie-ins ever depicted Romulans using AIs or androids?

Collision Course had a passing reference to Romulan robots boarding Earth ships during the Earth/Romulan war.

 

[Christopher]

Collision Course had a passing reference to Romulan robots boarding Earth ships during the Earth/Romulan war.

I'm asking about artificial intelligence, not robotics in general. The brain, not the body.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I'm asking about artificial intelligence, not robotics in general. The brain, not the body.

Usually in this situation, I would consult with Christopher Bennett. But that doesn't seem applicable here.

Checking Memory Beta, The Red King has Romulans purging their computer systems when AIs begin to form (kind of in continuity with Picard's revelation), and Exiles goes into details on the Technocrats amongst the Vulcans-in-Exile who would go on to help found Romulan civilization. They were proponents of AI during the Sundering, although I guess that died out due to the presence of other factions (and the Zhat Vash).

Since the Surakian Vulcans at the time of the Sundering are said (in one source) to be against AI, maybe the Zhat Vash is just an ancient Vulcan organization that works across the governments to hush out potential threats. Maybe Oh is a Vulcan and a Zhat Vash and there is no conflict.

 

[JD]

None of it happened. All of it happened.

My books are still on their shelves, they've not disappeared since last Thursday and it's all fictional anyway, which leads back to none of it happening and all of it happening.

I keep seeing people say this, but it really has nothing to do with what is being discussed. We are talking about the end of the stories from Novelverse, not the books themselves. I don't remember seeing a single person ever bring up the physical books. I'm pretty sure that every person in this conversation is intelligent enough to know that the books aren't suddenly going to cease to exist.

 

[ryan123450]

Thank you @JD. I’m so sick of seeing that idiotic straw man.

 

[DimesDan]

Thank you @JD. I’m so sick of seeing that idiotic straw man.

And I am rather amused by the teeth gnashing over some madeup things being replaced/superseded by other madeup things.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

And I am rather amused by the teeth gnashing over some madeup things being replaced/superseded by other madeup things.

Yeah, my approach when saying things like “they won’t disappear from your shelf” is using that as shorthand - maybe these adventures won’t continue in the form they have, but they will still be there. They’ll still exist. It’s not a cataclysmic devastation where you lose all that once was. It just opens the door for new tales, new worlds, new characters to enjoy.

Like I have several novel-exclusive characters I’ve grown to love. I love the path established characters took that are contradictory to what Picard is showing. None of this means that I lose the stories that exist, and I’ll treasure them forever. Do I want more? Of course, hell, that’s been the basis of my love of post-Nemesis lit. But this ride was always going to end at some point - if it hadn’t been Picard, it would have been some future series that brings back the Borg, goes “what the hell’s a Typhon Pact?” says Ro Laren died on her way back to her home planet, whatever.

This stuff is nature of the beast. The novels were never actual canon, just allowed to be accepted as such by the fans. But, once the franchise picks up again, the contradictions are inevitable, because a TV show will never let itself be shackled to content that not everyone picks up and can even be out of print.

It’s the same thing I thought about the Star Wars EU getting shunted - to pick up in the films where the novels had, there is SO. MUCH. to sift through just to condense it in an understandable fashion, I got it immediately - to explain Jaina Solo and her husband Jag Fel and where they were in the final Legends novel, one has to explain the whole of the New Jedi Order, the Legacy of the Force, and Fate of the Jedi. That’s almost forty novels that would be serving as an introduction. Sure, there are mega super fans who absorb all expanded material (speaking), but that’s the minority of any audience that the movies target - ask someone who went into any sequel trilogy movie, ask if they’d read any of the novels, most would probably say no.

This is business. As much as we love these things, they are still run by what makes the corporation money. The screen is a wider market than the novel, so that’s what they aim for.

 

[iarann]

I am curious, once the season is over, to sort through which books contradict the new canon material and which ones do not. There's obvious stuff, like post-Nemesis TNG and such, but where will the cutoff be? How much pre-Nemesis stuff might be invalidated?

 

[Greg Cox]

Thank you @JD. I’m so sick of seeing that idiotic straw man.

To be fair, it arguably makes more sense in the context of folks lamenting that some beloved past books have been erased or invalidated somehow. In that context, it's perhaps worth pointing out that you can still read them anytime you want, regardless of continuity issues.

A good book is still a good book, regardless of whether it's contradicted by a later story.

 

[tomswift2002]

I am curious, once the season is over, to sort through which books contradict the new canon material and which ones do not. There's obvious stuff, like post-Nemesis TNG and such, but where will the cutoff be? How much pre-Nemesis stuff might be invalidated?

When you think about it, there was only 1 year of time between Voyager’s Endgame (2378) and Nemesis (2379), so unless they provide a really detailed description of Voyager’s missions during that 1 year, there probably won’t be much to contradict the Voyager novels up to “Full Circle”, since we already know from Nemesis that Janeway was promoted to Admiral.

 

[Christopher]

To be fair, it arguably makes more sense in the context of folks lamenting that some beloved past books have been erased or invalidated somehow. In that context, it's perhaps worth pointing out that you can still read them anytime you want, regardless of continuity issues.

Yes. And even if the novel continuity comes to an end, it's still a huge continuity that ran for some 20 years, which is quite a feat. Nothing lasts forever, but this lasted remarkably long.