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Is there a way to try and "learn to love" Nemesis?

Seriously, Star Trekkiness and continuity aside, it's a sluggish, slow moving, illogical film that tries to use "set pieces" to amp up the energy instead of focusing on a strong, well-paced adventure. The film is just DULL, with a villain so stupid that even though he knows he's dying, he waits and waits to meet the man he needs to stay alive, then further toys with him, putting his own life at risk. Unforgiveably stupid, and it not only makes the villain a moron, it keeps the plot from advancing in anything but the occasional fit and start fashion.
 
Seriously, Star Trekkiness and continuity aside, it's a sluggish, slow moving, illogical film that tries to use "set pieces" to amp up the energy instead of focusing on a strong, well-paced adventure. The film is just DULL, with a villain so stupid that even though he knows he's dying, he waits and waits to meet the man he needs to stay alive, then further toys with him, putting his own life at risk. Unforgiveably stupid, and it not only makes the villain a moron, it keeps the plot from advancing in anything but the occasional fit and start fashion.

I agree with you Nemesis is very slow in some parts! I wonder if a different director could have brought more life to some of the slower and duller scenes? I guess we will never know.
 
I can't really... think of anything beyond enjoying the visuals (and the wedding). Nicely done there, but otherwise, I do not like this movie and only own it to complete the current collection.

J.
 
Didn't they rip Shinzon pulling himself along that girder thing from another film?

And I still don't see why B-4 couldn't have been a mind-wiped Lore...


Twas from LoTR, the head Uruk-hai is impaled on Boromir's sword and he drags himself along its length in order to kill his foe. Whereupon he is Swiftly decapitated for his troubles.
The silly sod!

Oh it's much older than that.

At the end of John Boorman's Excalibur (1981)- at the very end of the Battle of Camlann, Arthur, having been speared clear through the abdomen by Mordred, claws his way up the spear-shaft and plunges Excalibur into Mordred's chest.

I believe the scene itself was inspired by Arthur Rackham's artwork "How Mordred was Slain by Arthur, and How by Him Arthur was Hurt to the Death" which was done circa 1917 or thereabouts. You can see the illustration reproduced on this wikipedia entry on the Battle of Camlann. I also suspect this illustration comes in turn from Malory's description of the event in Le Morte d'Arthur (which it's been a long, long time since I read) first published in 1485, and it's even possible Malory took it from some earlier story.
 
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Seriously, Star Trekkiness and continuity aside, it's a sluggish, slow moving, illogical film that tries to use "set pieces" to amp up the energy instead of focusing on a strong, well-paced adventure. The film is just DULL, with a villain so stupid that even though he knows he's dying, he waits and waits to meet the man he needs to stay alive, then further toys with him, putting his own life at risk. Unforgiveably stupid, and it not only makes the villain a moron, it keeps the plot from advancing in anything but the occasional fit and start fashion.

I agree with you Nemesis is very slow in some parts! I wonder if a different director could have brought more life to some of the slower and duller scenes? I guess we will never know.


This makes me wonder if the makers of the film actually sit down and watch it after a couple of weeks later and see if iit is any good.

Surely they would be able to SEE the flaws or they so arrogant that they cannot.

The plot holes were absurd in Nemesis.

They should get away from the uber super villian uber super weapon nonsense and just have a good multi faceted exploration movie instead now.
 
I do appreciate that the problems are not with the actors. They are all trying really hard to make a good movie. Judging from a couple of convention conversations I've had with a couple of them, they are as disappointed as the fans.


Picard was allowed to direct/interfere the movie script which is never a good idea.Surely the contract should enforce actors to keep their noses out of the script.
 
Both Stewart and Spiner were heavily involved in the writing work here, IIRC, and it netted bad results.

It seemed to have worked for Nimoy, though. :)
 
IIRC = 'If I Recall Correctly.'

And regarding Nimoy - is he? Or was he just objective enough to realize that the needs of the many can help feed the needs of the one? ;)
 
Ever since I read through this thread earlier, I have been trying to come up with something possitive. I'm afraid that, at least in my eyes, this movie had very few, if any, redeeming qualities what so ever. I'm tempted to put my copy of it up on Ebay for $1, but I would prefer to keep my ST movie collection complete.
Heh. I only bought Nemesis because I found it in an after-Christmas bargain bin. For $3. Canadian. :D
 
No... there is no love to learn for Nemesis. :shifty: Let me cite the reasons:
I love your list! :bolian: Can you make some for the other TNG movies (and TFF)? Then I can just link to your posts when people ask me how I feel about them. :D
 
And I still don't see why B-4 couldn't have been a mind-wiped Lore...
Off-hand I can think of two reasons:

1. How would you explain Lore's back-story to the audience who hadn't seen his episodes of TNG? I mean, trying to explain that he's the protoype for data who was deactivated 'cause he was kinda evil, then reactivated by the innocent Enterprise crew only to try and kill them, then jettisoned into space, then taken aboard a Pakled vessel and brought to Dr. Soongh's home world by way of homing device where he stole Data's emotion chip, after which he teamed up with a rogue band of Borg but was ultimately defeated after which Data got his chip back and Lore was deactivated. That's alot to explain. :)

2. If you could successfully explain the above, it would make the Enterprise crew look like a real bunch of boobs if they were willing to both activate him and dump a copy of Data's memory into him after all that. Well, a bigger bunch of boobs than they already were for finding a random android on a planet and doing that.

Yeah, I don't think you'd even need to "mind-wipe" Lore, and here's why:

1. He would require no more of a backstory than was necessary for the Borg (and Picard's alter-ego, Locutus) in Star Trek: First Contact. Lore was an evil dog that had to be put down. How much more would the audience have needed? You don't even have to tell the film audience that the Enterprise-D crew was originally required to reassemble him in order for him to go apeshit. For all they know, he just showed up at some point. The general audience is given a half-assed yet reasonable explanation, while the fanbase is satisfied that their memories of how things really went haven't been completely trampled over.

2. In either case (both in the real Star Trek: Nemesis and the hypothetical one), Data was the one who did the memory dump, not his crewmates. And, in this case, let's presume that the crew doesn't even have to go to the trouble of reassembling him. Shinzon and the Remans have already done so. Now you have true nemeses on two different fronts; Picard/Shinzon and Data/Lore. That having been said, Lore being implanted with the knowledge, memories and insight into humanity that Data has gained over the years would give his older brother the chance for redemption, something I think would have been cool to see.

The only problem I'd see with this is that Lore would make a much more formidable villain than Shinzon, and there's no way he'd ever play second fiddle to anybody unless he were the true evil pulling the strings behind the scenes. Suppose it's the Romulans, rather than the Remans, who pick Lore up and reassemble him in the hopes that they might use him against the Federation. HE'S the one that kills the Senate and helps Shinzon and the Remans position themselves into power.

Their next objective, similar to how it was in the movie, is to hunt down and kill their clones/brothers. Why? Shinzon has no freaking clue, but Lore sure as hell does, and Shinzon is unhinged enough from his time as a slave on Remus that any excuse Lore comes up with works for him. At some point, the Enterprise-E crew deactivates Lore and puts him in storage 'till they figure out just what to do with him, since disassembling him and leaving him on some random planet obviously didn't work. In the end, Data is forced to sacrifice himself to save everyone, but not before bestowing upon his brother the greatest gift he could give him.

In this way, it's not a TOTAL rip-off of The Wrath of Khan. Data is most sincerely dead, but everything that made him who he was is inside the memory banks of Lore (you gotta figure those positronic brains have more than enough space for that amount of information), who now has a better appreciation for his brother and the universe in general.
 
Good thoughts, Caligula. Working from what they were working with, had B-4 been Lore, it might have even been more interesting for Lore to have had a memory implant from Data and chose to be good at the end of the movie. So you have essentially Data reincarnated, but not literally.
 
*sigh* Nemesis, Nemesis, Nemesis...

Well, the fault definitely starts at the writer's level - the point where the writer essentially says that they were drawing heavily on Wrath of Khan. If anything, that's where the problems start. Nemesis was never a tale in its own right, just a pale reflection of another movie. It was too busy trying to be another story that it does try to develop its own.

And then there's the usage of the characters - horrid, and I mean the fact that in the cast of about half, there's no usage at all - let's take Geordi and Beverly out of the finished product. Any difference? Nope. Could we remove Worf as well? Most likely - the novelization includes a bit where a Romulan helps to save his life, and without that, there's really no need to have him there.

The characters are rather dim as well - like it's been mentioned, they discover another Soong-type android, scattered but easily reassembled on a single planet and no one is suspicious? Oh, Starfleet, how your standards have fallen. Even a throwaway mention of Lore would have made them seem so much smarter than they're portrayed.

And, why, exactly, was the director someone unfamiliar with the universe? I mean, he referred to Geordi as an alien, for god's sake!

'Learn to love Nemesis'? Nope. Not possible. Tolerate it, through the usage of the novels and the odd fanwank? Yeah, that I'm doing. But I'd still rather wipe it away and replace it with something better.
 
Gary7 had some excellent points.

For me personally the worst parts of the movie are as follows:

1. I was promised Romulans, and got space vampires.
2. Shinzon was not even for a second believable as Picard's clone. The picture of young bald Picard only made this fact worse in my mind (lame attempt at putting it together)
3. Why is the damn ship so dark?????? Will somebody turn on the freakin' lights?
4. The whole argo scene was cringe inducing.
5. The Riker/Troi honeymoon was cringe inducing AND disturbing.
6. Enough of the supervillain with the super weapon, like someone above me said.
7. And last and WORST offender. They kill Data. Sorry, I don't care how anyone sugarcoats it, but I do NOT go to a movie to watch my favorite characters killed off. There is NO EXCUSE FOR IT.
 
And, why, exactly, was the director someone unfamiliar with the universe? I mean, he referred to Geordi as an alien, for god's sake!
He was owed a directing gig after he helped bail out Paramount during the editing of Mission: Impossible 2 and Lara Croft: Tomb Raider.
 
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