Nemesis is better than Insurrection: Convince me otherwise.

[Qonundrum]

I finally got around to watching the 4K of Star Trek Nemesis. I'm sorry to say that the movie has dated real bad. It has a distinct "digital" look, weird considering that it was shot on film. As for the movie itself, it has a more consistent tone than Insurrection, but that tone is maudlin and Nemesis feels weirdly cheap and made for TV.

The early-2000s started the all-digital recording instead of film, and about a decade later all theaters had to migrate to digital projection systems. I remember seeing "Skyfall" in the theater and gradient banding in an evening sky (yep, it was teal) was a telltale giveaway.

The reason I dislike Nemesis more than Insurrection though really comes down to the plot hole and inconsistency. Why doesn’t anyone simply tell the computer to turn up the lights, which would blind the photosensitive Reman! Riker and the Viceroy have a manly fight and then the Viceroy is sent plunging to his death, like Palpatine. He plunges down a shaft that'd make the Enterprise about 100 decks tall.

On the plus side, that makes one of the worst gaffes in STV palatable by comparison.

The story is loaded with plotting problems, too many to count. The setup for Shinzon is so outlandishly contrived that it's amazing he doesn't turn to the camera and pretend to be Dark Helmet or Mr Roper.

There's the horrible trope of disfigurement equalling evil, the comical time it takes to fire the Thaleron thingy.

Possibly; everything relies on shallow ideas with contrived origins being "cool" or captivating, which it isn't. A few rewrites to get rid of excesses and contrivances would have improved this immensely. I didn't equate the trope of "disfigurement = evil", my mind was too much on "Shinzon is a discarded attempt to clone Picard for big gambit we never ever saw but put on a prison planet that's also the second class citizen planet (Remans) where he and a handful of people are able to build the bestiest bestest ship ever with no sensors in the galaxy making alarm bells over the amount of frigging radiation or energy emission... Let me guess: Big super-dee-duper megamegaship had the shields that even the shield's shield energy emissions won't be detected by anything-- goes back to the same theme of "big big bad, because reason". Even PIC3 did a better job at making it easier to roll along with, which it generally did quite well... NEM blundered mostly because it's mired down in origin story minutiae that just don't add up or hold up in this flick.

And Nemesis also comits the worst sin possible - it's a copy. A copy of TWOK and TUC - moreso even than the derided STID, which was actually trying to say something about drone strikes and America post 9/11. This film should be about nature vs nurture, but that debate is lost in all the silliness.

Many plot beats and then they copy and paste TSFS's absent friends speech, all of which was beyond hokey.

NEM deserved better. Tom Hardy got a raw deal and he worked a lot to get Shinzon to sparkle against the banal plotting. The movie was on the right track and there is a good story buried within it. I wonder when NEM went from a simpler draft into overload.

The saddest thing is, IMHO, NEM is better than INS, but INS's discarded rough draft is still better than NEM as filmed.

 

[Riley]

Thing is, more of TUC depends on people acting out of character (including to an extent the technology of the enterprise — but that is Meyer’s battleships-in-space thing, same as in TWOK) for many bits of the plot to work. It also has fairly little for any of the crew to do as individual characters.
TFF, once you get past the shonky effects and some of — but not all of — the forced post TVH humour, is quite the opposite. Everyone has a scene or two to do something, usually pretty tailored to either the character or the actors strengths.
I also think Shatner is at least *as good* as Meyer when it comes to direction and purely visual storytelling, and may actually be better than Nimoy was on TVH in that regard. It’s close run, but Shatner definitely leans towards the cinematic more often.

Both stories also have elements that make less sense now we aren’t in that era any more — whether it’s the televangelist elements of TFF or the Soviet fall stuff in TUC. But the TUC stuff is easier to have a kind of collective memory for. Look at another film from that year — License To Kill — and you can see there is something in the air being reflected around that Evangelistic corruption stuff.

TFF is definitively more interested in bringing *new* things to the table, and does so pretty well — Nimbus III was ahead of its time in Trek, foreshadowing the “darker” side of things like DS9 and more modern Treks, and Sybok does actually work (much better when they tried a similar trick with Burnham in DSC as well) because they spend enough time to make sure it makes sense.
TUC is more about bringing things to an end. Hopeful for the universe perhaps, but not so much for the crew who are instead separated and retired. Still an approach, but maybe not the best in how it was decided to bring them there.
The performances are just better all around in TFF. Scotty and therefore Doohan are somewhat shortchanged in both, but more so TUC — he should have been modifying that Torpedo. Even Sulu and Chekov get better stuff to do in V as well.
I think in an odd way, TFF gives more to the future of Trek (be it in props alone) than TUC ultimately does. Klingon Peace? TNG was on air, and TFF already showed a glimmer of how that can be brought about. Just not on the galactic scale TUC reached for perhaps, but just as valid.

TFF is a spiritual successor to Who Mourns for Adonais and similar TOS fare, and TUC is more like the same for Journey to Babel or maybe even Conscience of a King and similar. I guess I prefer the first of those too. And much like the second pair, TUC is much more about it’s guest stars and their characters than the Enterprise crew.

(Edit, because I left it off.)

Which is ultimately the same reason why Nemesis doesn’t work in a way. Not only are the Enterprise crew mostly sidelined *again* (esp Crusher) but we spend so long with Shinzon. Then the story closes so many things off, with our heroes sent off. The only new thing we are given is something which ironically was done *better* in V, a brother for lead science guy. Nemesis left a bad taste in the mouth whilst trying to be a TUc-meets-TWOK. Insurrection is like V — better for the characters, for the actors, more cinematic, and maybe just a little too much like the TV show for some people.

It makes me so damned happy to see that someone else doesn't just like, but clearly loves, The Final Frontier. Thank you for this!

 

[jaime]

It makes me so damned happy to see that someone else doesn't just like, but clearly loves, The Final Frontier. Thank you for this!I

I’m fortunate. When I saw V on its release, I was young enough to not worry about FX so much (it was actually the first Trek I saw on the big screen) and because TNG wasn’t yet an absolute fixture, I didn’t even *notice* the set reuse. So even when coming back to it as an adult, I’m not hung up on things like that.
I also have none of the fan-influenced opinions on The Shatner in any direction, and TOS exists almost secondary to the movies for me.

Because I have a different kind of baggage, most of the problems in TFF kind of melt away for me, and like TMP I can kind of put the criticisms that are valid into a different perspective than some I guess.

It’s a bit like the way the Star Wars prequels are less of a problem for people whom that *was* their Star Wars, or for anyone has that better handle on what the originals were — I.e they were family/kids films before *anything* else. Not least as Lucas had a vested interest in selling action figures.

TFF for *me* was almost… an experience based entirely on its own merits. I don’t think I had even seen IV when I saw it. I was not comparing it to anything but itself, and other things entirely. For me that was the year I saw Last Crusade, TFF, and Ghistbusters II all in the same big cinema, and I loved all of them. Sure, with hindsight I can find flaws in all of them, but that’s kind of missing the point I think.

It’s like picking at Titanic or Forrest Gump thirty years on. There’s a reason people flocked at the time. TFF is more of an underdog than those, and has a more rabid fan base too xD

But hey, I can mount a decent defence of the GiTS movie and particularly Dial of Destiny — I’m an optimistic contrary bastard by nature.
I should probably blame watching movie era Kirk for that habit.

 

[suarezguy]

Nemesis also comits the worst sin possible - it's a copy. A copy of TWOK and TUC - moreso even than the derided STID, which was actually trying to say something about drone strikes and America post 9/11.

Not much (just don't attack countries that didn't attack you) but at least more than Nemesis just trying to say that it really liked and wanted to be Star Wars.

 

[Herald252]

The core problems for me were the underdeveloped stakes and character arcs. In those two movies these characters are undeniably at a stage where career advancement, deeper life fulfillment, and grappling with profound personal and worldly questions are paramount. The actors' maturity naturally suggests the potential for weighty, Shakespearean-level drama, especially since this isn't just a mindless action series. I certainly expected something grander. The fundamental issue, however, is that the TV show spent seven seasons mining similar humanistic territory. How many times can you polish those same ideas? Consequently, the scripts lacked the essential spark – the crucial seed of momentum – required to elevate these movies to greatness. Sadly, they seemed to believe special effects could compensate for the lack of at least profound intimate character moments. To this day, I remember La Forge simply watching a sunrise more vividly than almost anything else. Even in Nemesis, amidst its flaws, Data's single farewell line to Picard held genuine weight. But imagine the potential they squandered! Moments like Riker finally embracing his own captaincy, Troi navigating that transition with him, or the poignant fracturing—or expansion—of this found family across different ships. It’s truly painful that such rich character potential was ultimately wasted. But if forced to rank them, I'd place both films in a shared second place. They're ultimately too different for direct comparison. One is a lighthearted exploration of justice and life's purpose, while the other grapples profoundly with life's end – examining how, and for what ideals, one might choose to die.

 

[fireproof78]

A copy of TWOK and TUC - moreso even than the derided STID, which was actually trying to say something about drone strikes and America post 9/11.

Indeed, yes. Nemesis was a poor copy of TWOK, TUC and FC, while ignoring the actual potential set up from the shows.

ID tells a story with stakes that are understandable and motivation that also is understandable from each character. Nemesis doesn't really have that.

 

[Uxi]

Biggest problem with Nemesis is the horrible copy of TWOK right down to the Data -> Spock including the Katra/B4 angle.

Would have been better if they had seen this as the right time for the TNG sendoff. Riker and Troi should leave at the beginning of the movie for the Titan, Perhaps not only new first officer (or a long overdue promotion for Data but Picard taking that promotion to Admiral, someone (Crusher or LaForge) deciding to retire to private life or something out of Starfleet? LaForge would be better of that.

 

[mr.peany]

I rewatched Nemesis yesterday and I dunno, the entire film felt "off". The lighting and colour scheme of the bridge was unpleasant. The acting from pretty much everyone involved felt as if they were just there for the paycheck. Some of the lines felt terribly out of character. The awfully uncomfortable Troi 'mind rape' scene, followed by Picard's "if you can endure any more of these assaults" really took me out and hit me for six. Crusher (again) and Worf had nothing to do. Also why was Worf there in the first place? The dune buggy scene. And unfortunately, at least for me, Jerry Goldsmith's score was by far his worst piece of work.

Anywho, for all its faults, I preferred Insurrection. At least to me it felt like TNG.

 

[Ssosmcin]

And unfortunately, at least for me, Jerry Goldsmith's score was by far his worst piece of work.

I cannot disagree with this more strongly. The score is terribly good and the unedited end credits music (heard on the album) is wonderful. Considering his age and declining health, it's a hell of a score. The action riffs are right up there with his best of the period.

TBH, all of Goldsmith's Trek scores are excellent.

And as long as Mr. Baseball exists, Nemesis will never be that bad.

I rewatched Nemesis yesterday and I dunno, the entire film felt "off". The lighting and colour scheme of the bridge was unpleasant. The acting from pretty much everyone involved felt as if they were just there for the paycheck. Some of the lines felt terribly out of character. The awfully uncomfortable Troi 'mind rape' scene, followed by Picard's "if you can endure any more of these assaults" really took me out and hit me for six. Crusher (again) and Worf had nothing to do. Also why was Worf there in the first place? The dune buggy scene.

Stewart, Spiner and Hardy all did their usual. Nobody was "bad" but I agree they were a little uninspired.

It wasn't a great Star Trek movie, but it's a decent space action flick. It packs more punch for me than the anodyne Insurrection.

 

[SlayerSantiago]

3 words. Battle group omega.

If those Starfleet ships had shown up to back-up the Enterprise against the Scimitar in the battle of the bassen rift - it would be a slam dunk for Nemesis over Insurrection.

 

[Atomic_Monkey]

I recently rewatched all 4 TNG films. I hadn't seen them since their initial release in the theater. I went in expecting to like Nemesis better than Insurrection. I vaguely recalled it being more action packed. Plus, I love Tom Hardy.

However, I ended up liking Insurrection better. It terms of plot neither of the two movies made much sense, so they were a wash on that front. But I found Insurrection a more pleasant experience because it wasn't as dark -- either in terms of mood or actual visual palette. I agree with people who say Insurrection felt like a filler episode from the TV series, but for me that was a positive. After all, I love the TV series, so I don't mind seeing more of it.

 

[Oddish]

Those two are my least favorite TNG movies, INS because the characters were fighting for a cause I really didn't support. Though they did take a bit of a break from their normal "death is good" stance to say "death is good, unless you're one of the 600 'chosen ones'''. But beyond that, INS had some really nice moments. Geordi's sunset, Riker and Troi, and even the "smooth as an android's bottom" exchange.

NEM, by comparison... it had the wedding, which would have fit better at the end of INS. Just move that, delete Nemesis from existence, and have INS end with either Riker and Troi sailing off on the Titan while Data takes his rightful place as Picard's first officer, or Picard and whatsherface together on Baku... and Data takes his rightful place as RIKER'S first officer. Then, make the last movie a DS9/VOY crossover.

My ranking is
1. First Contact, in a walk.
2. Generations, a flawed effort but an OK one.
3. Insurrection, some great moments.
4. Nemesis. Being turned into a ferret and emphatically bounced around would be more fun than watching this.

 

[CoveTom]

I recently rewatched all 4 TNG films. I hadn't seen them since their initial release in the theater. I went in expecting to like Nemesis better than Insurrection. I vaguely recalled it being more action packed. Plus, I love Tom Hardy.

However, I ended up liking Insurrection better. It terms of plot neither of the two movies made much sense, so they were a wash on that front. But I found Insurrection a more pleasant experience because it wasn't as dark -- either in terms of mood or actual visual palette. I agree with people who say Insurrection felt like a filler episode from the TV series, but for me that was a positive. After all, I love the TV series, so I don't mind seeing more of it.

Nemesis is action-packed, I guess, but I find the action falls flat. I think the action sequences they did on DS9 on a TV budget are far superior. For example, the Klingon attack on the station in "Way of the Warrior" is flawlessly executed, IMHO, and is my favorite Trek action sequence to date. The Nemesis stuff just doesn't connect for me.

 

[Atomic_Monkey]

Nemesis is action-packed, I guess, but I find the action falls flat. I think the action sequences they did on DS9 on a TV budget are far superior.

I agree. I even was a bit disappointed with the action in First Contact and felt that I'd seen better in the TV show. I suppose the TV shows were forced by necessity to be more judicious in their use of action, which gave their action sequences extra weight. I still loved First Contact, but afterwards it wasn't the battle with the Borg I was replaying in my head -- it was the argument between Picard and Worf.

 

[suarezguy]

Nemesis is action-packed, I guess, but I find the action falls flat.

I think it would pretty much have to feel overdone-but-underwhelming when Shinzon's plot motivation was so weird and unconvincing, basically just being against humans and Earth because he is, wants to be evil adversary and more real universe is, has to be Big Movie Bad Guy.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I also think Shatner is at least *as good* as Meyer when it comes to direction and purely visual storytelling, and may actually be better than Nimoy was on TVH in that regard. It’s close run, but Shatner definitely leans towards the cinematic more often.

I also rate Shatner more highly than Nimoy as a director. And on the NextGen films, I rate Carson and Baird more highly than Frakes.

 

[jaime]

I also rate Shatner more highly than Nimoy as a director. And on the NextGen films, I rate Carson and Baird more highly than Frakes.

Shatner yes, far and away. I’d give Carson a tie with Frakes cos Gen (like V) is probably the most cinematic film since TMP. Baird is terrible though, because knowing your material and working with your actors is something he really didn’t do. He’s an ok editor at best tbh.

 

[Crumpets]

If you can't keep making movies as dynamic and well rounded as First Contact, then adhere to place these characters are now and write a story that fits in the trek verse and logic as snug as possible. Hardy's performance was strong. But the politics was off. In INS I think my main gripe was how the federation was handling the extradition. Surely there was compromise with a whole planet. Also the theme that the locals had a type of enlightenment which progress centric humans don't understand, was ok, but in the end it felt there was no substance to their ideas. Good think the federation came and rescued you guys! I need watch it again though. Ship fights is an easy language for me. Also ugly dudes so advanced? To many races can go toe to toe with the federation top ships, despite having a toxic, small minded culture.

 

[USS Firefly]

I also rate Shatner more highly than Nimoy as a director. And on the NextGen films, I rate Carson and Baird more highly than Frakes.

I rate Baird as the worst Trek director. Not only because Nemesis is a terrible movie but mostly because the way Baird treated the cast

 

[jaime]

I rate Baird as the worst Trek director. Not only because Nemesis is a terrible movie but mostly because the way Baird treated the cast

Which is a key part of the job.