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Is the return of Odo really more important than all of AQ?

infinix

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
The female founder mentioned this several times throughout the Dominion War story arc. If she was being truthful, does that mean had Odo said to her "I'll return to the Great Link on the condition that the Dominion never set foot in the Alpha Quadrant." The war would have ended right then and there?
 
I recall the female Founder saying something about Odo and The Great Link being more important than the entire Alpha Quadrant. So be it.

If that's how she feels about it, yeah, the war could have stopped on the spot. And it pretty much did at the end when Odo agreed to return. I guess that's all it took, at least as far as she was concerned.
 
I took it to mean that the female founder would rather lose control of the Alpha Quadrant and have Odo back, than lose Odo and maintain control of the Alpha quadrant. But I still think the Dominion would have still invaded the AQ regardless. They saw the solids as "invading" the Gamma Quadrant and disrupting the order of things. Maybe even infecting worlds under Dominion control with ideas of rebellion. It took Odo's experience with solids, and his joining the Great Link at the end to help them understand that Starfleet had no interest in conquering the Dominion or shapeshifters.
 
Is there anything from stopping the Dominion from invading the alpha quadrant again? Perhaps with Odo returning to the Great Link, he could make them understand that not all solids are a threat.
 
I would've loved to have a highly advanced gaseous species (like the Calamaran but with an actual structured society) to come and start a war with the founders because they were oppressed by the liquids eons ago.
 
I liked the Trek Lit stuff (I think it's where it came from) that the Founders couldnt have children and that's why one Founder was more important than the AQ and why they wouldnt kill each other.
 
I liked the Trek Lit stuff (I think it's where it came from) that the Founders couldnt have children and that's why one Founder was more important than the AQ and why they wouldnt kill each other.
Interesting thought, yeah. Does that come from "Olympus Rising?" I never did read that...
I took it to mean that the female founder would rather lose control of the Alpha Quadrant and have Odo back, than lose Odo and maintain control of the Alpha quadrant. But I still think the Dominion would have still invaded the AQ regardless. They saw the solids as "invading" the Gamma Quadrant and disrupting the order of things. Maybe even infecting worlds under Dominion control with ideas of rebellion. It took Odo's experience with solids, and his joining the Great Link at the end to help them understand that Starfleet had no interest in conquering the Dominion or shapeshifters.
This makes the most sense. The conversation in question was during the occupation arc at the start of s6 (though I can't remember preceisly which ep); Weyoun says the Founder Leader has been doing an excellent job with Odo, and that he could have been a security risk. FL balks at this, and that's when she says that returning Odo to the Great Link is more important than the AQ. I'm with antiquityscion; if Odo, at some point during the war, had just suddenly gone "Ok, ok, fine" and gone back to the link, the Founders would have gone "Yay! ... Okay, now back to the war."

And what DID seal the deal in "What You Leave Behind" was the one-two combination of Odo not only promising to return, but also demonstrating that he can cure the disease infecting them, and promising to cure the entire link, as well. And I haven't actually watched WYLB in a while, but I seem to recall Odo mentioning that if he returns, he might be able to teach the other changelings, tamping down their mistrust of - and aggression toward - solids.
 
...Which we don't actually see happen, as the camera moves away right after Odo delivers the cure but before he can return to report on diplomatic success or failure to Kira. So we don't know if the war recommenced the following day, or was put on hold for the next fifty years, or if the Founders became fast friends with the UFP and disbanded the Dominion overnight.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Which we don't actually see happen, as the camera moves away right after Odo delivers the cure but before he can return to report on diplomatic success or failure to Kira. So we don't know if the war recommenced the following day, or was put on hold for the next fifty years, or if the Founders became fast friends with the UFP and disbanded the Dominion overnight.

Timo Saloniemi

When looking at the eventual outcome of what happened after "What You Leave Behind", I would guess that the Dominion would at least cease all aggressions in the AQ. The war wasn't exactly going their way because they had a rebellion on their hands from the Cardassians and couldn't really get reinforcements from the GQ.

Now that the Sisko is with the prophets, you can almost safely bet that no massive fleet will be coming through the worm hole anytime soon.

Most of the evidence point to the fact that without the worm hole and constant resupply from the GQ, the Dominion couldn't do very much in the AQ.
 
I liked the Trek Lit stuff (I think it's where it came from) that the Founders couldnt have children and that's why one Founder was more important than the AQ and why they wouldnt kill each other.
Sounds interesting, and I haven't read those. But doesn't that kind of conflict with Odo's origin story. He was an "infant" when he was sent through the worm hole and found by the Cardasians.
 
Most of the evidence point to the fact that without the worm hole and constant resupply from the GQ, the Dominion couldn't do very much in the AQ.

Umm, what? The Dominion never got a single resupply shipment through the wormhole during the entire war. Never. First there was the minefield, then the Prophets blockaded the thing and ultimately the Alphans held the terminus.

Despite this, they appeared to be winning hands down - always bouncing back from defeat, always outnumbering our heroes through outproducing them. That is, their isolated beachhead force was outproducing the combined native Alpha Quadrant shipyards, allowing them to outnumber the Klingons twenty to one at the final stages of the war. The Feds or the Romulans could hardly be argued to have been twenty times more powerful than the Klingons...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Most of the evidence point to the fact that without the worm hole and constant resupply from the GQ, the Dominion couldn't do very much in the AQ.
Umm, what? The Dominion never got a single resupply shipment through the wormhole during the entire war. Never. First there was the minefield, then the Prophets blockaded the thing and ultimately the Alphans held the terminus.

Despite this, they appeared to be winning hands down - always bouncing back from defeat, always outnumbering our heroes through outproducing them. That is, their isolated beachhead force was outproducing the combined native Alpha Quadrant shipyards, allowing them to outnumber the Klingons twenty to one at the final stages of the war. The Feds or the Romulans could hardly be argued to have been twenty times more powerful than the Klingons...

Timo Saloniemi

Before the worm hole was mined, there were numerous convoys from the Dominion to Cardassia. I know that there weren't any subsequent resupply from the GQ. But I could never really understand how Dominion was able to produce the way they did after "The Sacrifice of Angels"

Since the Dominion was able to churn out so many more ships than anybody else, why would they be looking for the "thousands of ships" reinforcement from GQ to begin with?

Also, I think having to fight a Cardassian rebellion is crucial here, too. The Dominion might have been able to take advantages of the existing Cardassian infrastructure, but with the rebellion, not only would the Dominion lose those resources, they have to worry about Cardassians selling out military secrets to the Feds.
 
What she said may have been that Odo was more important than the AQ-- but I don't take that at face value because of who she was addressing.

Weyoun made a comment saying basically that the "female" founder had neutralized Odo as a threat to their war. Her comment to him seemed more to the point that the Founders are super important- more important than the Vorta, than space, than any war with pathetic solids. It, to me, was more of a rebuke than an actual point of fact.
 
Shouldn't a god be more important than anything else? I thought she said that to stress such.
 
What she said may have been that Odo was more important than the AQ-- but I don't take that at face value because of who she was addressing.

Weyoun made a comment saying basically that the "female" founder had neutralized Odo as a threat to their war. Her comment to him seemed more to the point that the Founders are super important- more important than the Vorta, than space, than any war with pathetic solids. It, to me, was more of a rebuke than an actual point of fact.
Exactly. She was reacting to the comments he made about "neutralizing a potential security risk" when referring to Odo. As discussed above, if they had to choose, they would rather get Odo back and leave the AQ forever than win the war and lose Odo forever, but if Odo had suddenly joined the lihk at any time during season 5-7, I don't think the war would have ceased.
Most of the evidence point to the fact that without the worm hole and constant resupply from the GQ, the Dominion couldn't do very much in the AQ.

Umm, what? The Dominion never got a single resupply shipment through the wormhole during the entire war. Never. First there was the minefield, then the Prophets blockaded the thing and ultimately the Alphans held the terminus.

Despite this, they appeared to be winning hands down - always bouncing back from defeat, always outnumbering our heroes through outproducing them. That is, their isolated beachhead force was outproducing the combined native Alpha Quadrant shipyards, allowing them to outnumber the Klingons twenty to one at the final stages of the war. The Feds or the Romulans could hardly be argued to have been twenty times more powerful than the Klingons...

Timo Saloniemi
infinix pointed out that the Dominion sent a ton of ships, troops, and supplies into Cardassian territory before the wormhole was mined, so I think calling the Dominion's AQ holdings an "isolated beachhead force" is a huge stretch. And beyond that, I think you are overstating things rather severely.

That the Jem'Hadar (and their ships) can be produced faster than their AQ counterparts is granted, as is the fact that the Dominion (and its military) were bigger than any single AQ power to begin with. But, let's keep in mind a few things: one, until sometime in late season 5, Starfleet ships couldn't mount an adequate defense against Jem'Hadar ships, due to their shields being completely ineffective in such encounters. Prior to the proper war, it's reasonable to assume that every such encounter went badly for Starfleet (though the Defiant lowering and then raising her shields around beaming Odo and Garak onboard at the end of "The Die is Cast" sort of throws a monkey wrench in it... it did seem like the shields were doing something then, despite Weyoun's pretty clear-cut statement in "Call to Arms" that a Starfleet shield holding up against Dominion weapons was a shock, because it hadn't been happening before). Additionally, the Klingons and Federation had both sapped each other's military resources with their brief "almost war" during s4-5, while the Dominion hadn't been fighting anyone. Then, the beginning of s6 shows us that the initial stages of the war have gone very badly for the AQ... and then, within an ep or two, we are given a specific reason why: the ridiculously powerful sensor array that Ross tasks Sisko with destroying. Once its gone, things shift... but by that point, all the factors mentioned above had already combined to put the AQ in a disadvantageous position. Even once the array was gone, they were fighting an uphill battle due to all the losses they had suffered (and, they were fighting the Dominion's AQ resources AND the Cardassians.

The "outnumbered twenty to one" referred to the Klingons alone, after all they'd gone through during s4-7, vs. the combined forces of the AQ Jem'Hadar, the Cardassians, and the Breen. And the Klingons had just lost an impossibly large number of ships to a single engagement, just as the UFP and Romulans had, further weakening them. "Outnumbered twenty to one" may also take into account the strategic situation: the Klingon forces in the Bajor sector will be outnumbered twenty to one. This does not absolutely mean that all AQ Dominion forces, everywhere, outnumber all Klingon forces, everywhere, by 20-1.

Besides, once the Breen weapon had been rendered more or less moot, the AQ Alliance were able to push the Dominion and bottle them up in Cardassian territory. Granted, that was once Damar's rebellion was underway, but even so, if the Jem'Hadar by themselves were able to SO completely outproduce the AQ Alliance as you suggest, then Damar's rebellion wouldn't mean squat in terms of the ability of the Alliance to effectively fight the Jem'Hadar, and the Cardassian fleet that remeained mostly loyal to the Dominion, and the Breen, let alone go on the offensive and drive them back.
 
...Which we don't actually see happen, as the camera moves away right after Odo delivers the cure but before he can return to report on diplomatic success or failure to Kira. So we don't know if the war recommenced the following day, or was put on hold for the next fifty years, or if the Founders became fast friends with the UFP and disbanded the Dominion overnight.

Timo Saloniemi

All these years later it still bothers me how that scene plays out. Odo's essentially ends the war and agrees to return to the Great Link off-screen (well, inside of a special effect) and the entire scene ends up being criminally anti-climatic as a result.
 
The female founder mentioned this several times throughout the Dominion War story arc. If she was being truthful, does that mean had Odo said to her "I'll return to the Great Link on the condition that the Dominion never set foot in the Alpha Quadrant." The war would have ended right then and there?

I hope that's not the case. Would make Odo look pretty irresponsible.

And what DID seal the deal in "What You Leave Behind" was the one-two combination of Odo not only promising to return, but also demonstrating that he can cure the disease infecting them, and promising to cure the entire link, as well.

The problem with that rationale is that it means the Feds effectively won through attempted genocide. I doubt that's the moral of the story the writers really wanted to convey.
 
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