I'm rethinking Geordie marrying Leah

[Mojochi]

That's still kinda the same ballpark IMHO

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's so hilarious. I can't want to read your evidence for how it was something that Kirk routinely did.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's still kinda the same ballpark IMHO

Elevator small talk

 

[Mojochi]

I'm not building a court case again Star Trek characters. He made a bloody Vulcan self-conscious about her hair. It's just an opinion

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm not building a court case again Star Trek characters. He made a bloody Vulcan self-conscious about her hair. It's just an opinion

She didn't seem overly bothered and factually pointed out it was still regulation. Very Vulcan response.

 

[Mojochi]

She didn't seem overly bothered and factually pointed out it was still regulation. Very Vulcan response.

What's overly bothered for a Vulcan look like? Pointing out that it hadn't violated any regulations implies she was made to think he was suggesting it might have. I don't think he was suggesting that. It was an offhand comment, about her hair, that she took more seriously than it was intended, but it's maybe better left unsaid altogether, because it's drawing attention to her looks, & now she has to address them needlessly

 

[NCC-73515]

And Bones immediately asks about her hair too

just to be liked, has a little understandable context, that I can extend a modicum of empathy to, given he's otherwise a decent person.

That is the key here, empathy for a not-perfect character who we know is not evil and would not intentionally hurt, exploit, or insult anybody.

 

[DonIago]

That is the key here, empathy for a not-perfect character who we know is not evil and would not intentionally hurt, exploit, or insult anybody.

But would intentionally deceive and manipulate someone (not just through omission of detail, but through blatant fabrication when asked direct questions) who he was trying to foster a romantic relationship with, as shown?

It's not even just a one-time option for Geordi; he has multiple opportunities to not just be honest in the first place but do any kind of damage control, and he doesn't.

No, I don't think he's "evil", but he's creepy AF in this episode and deserved a call from Starfleet's Human Resources equivalent.

As to the hair thing, after decades of dealing with Spock, maybe Kirk and Bones were just flabbergasted that a Vulcan would change her hairstyle at all.

 

[Skipper]

I really don't understand this narrative: "Ah poor Geordi, he's just socially awkward, he's the real victim of the wicked Leah, he just made honest mistakes."

Of course, one can make mistakes. But Geordi clearly doesn't admit his mistakes; instead, he places all the blame on Leah, who is forced (by the writers) to apologize. I'm not sure what for, resentment after discovering Geordi's virtual blow-up doll with her likeness?

Geordi NEVER admits he was wrong, he NEVER apologizes for making Leah uncomfortable. The moral of the episode is: assertive women are always wrong. Men who use any method to get into women's panties are always right. At worst, they're guilty of overenthusiasm. But that's not something they need to apologize for.

 

[WarpCore]

Wasn't it established before this episode that he is very bad at socializing with women he's interested in? Something with a violin player on a beach?
He's awkward, overwhelmed, leaning into creepiness, but he's not a bad guy, not a villain in the episode. Clumsy and all, yes, but he never had bad intentions.

That's how Booby Trap, the episode with the Leah hologram's creation, starts. The holodeck beach with violin establishing yet again that Geordi is 'bad with women' and 'lays it on thick' is the opening scene.

That's untrue.

If Geordi had been simply using the hologram for informational purposes, then he would not have had the computer synthesize a personality for it, so that he could—in his own words—get personal on the holodeck, after he had been soundly rejected by his earlier date and had used Guinan as a sounding board about seemingly being unable to hit it off with women.

The hologram acted that way only because Geordi ordered the computer to synthesize the personality, an act completely unnecessary had he only been using the hologram to obtain information.

P.S. That's not remotely close to deus ex machina.

Prior to adding a personality 'representation' it's just a computer talking in a dry, slow monotone. Geordi doesn't even ask for a hologram of Leah intentionally. The computer does it for him to his surprise. After it did, he requested an upgrade hoping it would give more useful answers and a more natural interaction rather than be a creepy statue that stares blankly at him between questions. Adding a personality made the hologram less annoying. Maybe to you that's completely unnecessary, but it wouldn't be to everyone. Especially if he's looking for 'someone' to bounce ideas off of and be challenged which makes the debate records relevant.

The line "LAFORGE: Great. Another woman who won't get personal with me in the holodeck." occurs before the hologram is created, so it's not about the Leah hologram. He's simply making a callback to his failure with Christy hours earlier while talking to himself. His question prompting the "COMPUTER: Access denied. Personal logs are restricted." was innocuous. He was looking for the person most responsible for the engine design rather than the "diplomatic" it was a team effort response.

Some comments act like Geordi broke into personal logs and had the computer put her in a slutty outfit. All he did was use publicly available information about Dr. Brahms to alter what the computer had already pushed onto him. That's not much different than scraping the internet to train an LLM now. Companies are doing it constantly these days. No one in any position to do so seems to have any inclination to stop them.

As I said above, I understand Geordi not wanting to quite provide all of the detail regarding the events of "Booby Trap", but it might have gone a long way to thawing things with him and Leah if he'd answered the question reasonably honestly ("I consulted it while trying to resolve a crisis the ship was experiencing"). And if he'd been able to thaw them a bit via honesty then perhaps he could have proactively (and with due chagrin) come clean about the rest of it rather than experiencing his personal worst-case scenario.

He gets upset with her because of a situation he did the bulk of the work in creating.

Brahms transports onto the ship caustic and acerbic with nothing but disrespect and contempt for the fleet's flagship chief engineer who she's never met. To add another dimension to the analogy, she's at a pH of 11 or 12. By dinnertime she's down to a pleasant 8. Ironically what thawed or neutralized her was she was impressed by the changes he made to the engines that were based on her unfinished work. She unknowingly impressed herself, and he took advantage of that.

"I saw a picture/hologram of you once." shouldn't have been difficult or an unwelcome response to the hair/records question. TNG too often used avoidance to create a plot when candor would disarm a situation instantly. Peak Performance has always annoyed me in that way. Picard could have said "The Enterprise and Hathaway are engaged in a training exercise. Piss off, Ferengi." and that should have been the end of it.

The line "Writing is one of your strong points." shouldn't be alarming to a person that publishes scientific papers, but it prompts a confrontation that draws a little honesty out of Georgi. Brahms is more than flattered or even receptive to it and has to pull a When Harry Met Sally style "men and women can't be friends" escape.


I think LaForge gets too much heat for the creation and expansion of a hologram he ran one time that we know of during an emergency. Does Zimmerman get as much hate for the LMH he based on Bashir and the investigation into Bashir's personal life and family that he explicitly asks Zimmerman not to do? He spent days invading Bashir's privacy. Geordi spent about 15 seconds kludging together something to work with.

 

[WarpCore]

I really don't understand this narrative: "Ah poor Geordi, he's just socially awkward, he's the real victim of the wicked Leah, he just made honest mistakes."

Of course, one can make mistakes. But Geordi clearly doesn't admit his mistakes; instead, he places all the blame on Leah, who is forced (by the writers) to apologize. I'm not sure what for, resentment after discovering Geordi's virtual blow-up doll with her likeness?

Geordi NEVER admits he was wrong, he NEVER apologizes for making Leah uncomfortable. The moral of the episode is: assertive women are always wrong. Men who use any method to get into women's panties are always right. At worst, they're guilty of overenthusiasm. But that's not something they need to apologize for.

[Ten Forward]
LAFORGE: Yeah, I admit it. I did get a little attached to that lady in the holodeck.
LEAH: The computer never told you that I was married?
LAFORGE: I never asked. And the computer is notorious for not volunteering information.
LEAH: You know, I really owe you an apology.
LAFORGE: No, you don't. I should have told you straight out.
LEAH: Well if you had, then I never would've got a chance to see the look on your face when you walked in on me and me in the holodeck.
LAFORGE: The look on my face? How about the look on your face? I will remember that for a long, long time.
LEAH: I wouldn't change a thing. Except for the way I behaved. I guess I came here with my own set of preconceptions about you.
LAFORGE: Well, I guess I'm just glad that I got the opportunity to get to know you. The real you.
LEAH: Me, too.
WORF [OC]: Worf to La Forge. There is an incoming message on subspace for Doctor Brahms.
LAFORGE: Acknowledged, Worf. La Forge out.
LEAH: My husband.

Maybe we watched different versions of the episode? The writers end the episode by having LaForge say she doesn't need to apologize and he does accept some accountability.

 

[Skipper]

Maybe we watched different versions of the episode? The writers end the episode by having LaForge say she doesn't need to apologize and he does accept some accountability.

Even worse. Leah feels compelled to apologize after being gaslighted by Geordi. It doesn't matter whether she does so in the context of the episode. But the writers clearly tell us that she's done something for which she should apologize.

But Geordi, who lied to her repeatedly throughout the episode, tricked her into a romantic dinner, ridicules her resentment over discovering his holographic copy, is mysteriously put in a position of moral superiority by the writers, and magnanimously tells Leah that there's no need for her to apologize.

I hope no one tells me for the umpteenth time that all this was normal in the 90s.

 

[WarpCore]

Even worse. Leah feels compelled to apologize after being gaslighted by Geordi. It doesn't matter whether she does so in the context of the episode. But the writers clearly tell us that she's done something for which she should apologize.

But Geordi, who lied to her repeatedly throughout the episode, tricked her into a romantic dinner, ridicules her resentment over discovering his holographic copy, is mysteriously put in a position of moral superiority by the writers, and magnanimously tells Leah that there's no need for her to apologize.

I hope no one tells me for the umpteenth time that all this was normal in the 90s.

So the ending does what you said it should have done, and not only is it not enough but it's "even worse." Ok then.

 

[Skipper]

So the ending does what you said it should have done, and not only is it not enough but it's "even worse." Ok then.

No. The writers clearly say "What Leah did was absolutely WRONG, Geordie just did some little mistakes, and he such a nice guy who forgives Leah for her misdeeds."

I'll say it again. Geordi NEVER admits in the episode what he did wrong, he lies about his intentions ("Oh no, I wanted to be friends, why do you treat me like this") and places all the blame on Leah. A woman who has just discovered her holographic copy says things like "When you touch the engines, it's like you're touching me."

 

[Airmandan]

meanwhile its perfectly normal these days for people to cyberstalk and research those they want to date and all. Geordie may have been weird, but he tried to be respectful. He didn't pull a Reg with his sex dolls, and that guy they continued to allow around those he offended against. Troi even became his friend. but lets blame Geordi and never forgive him

https://www.thezoereport.com/p/why-...is-not-only-valid-but-also-important-15824425

https://www.popsugar.com/love/pre-date-research-49386537

https://lifehacker.com/this-is-how-much-online-stalking-you-should-do-before-1848172339

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alyson...est-ways-to-research-someone-you-meet-online/

https://bestlifeonline.com/research-first-dates/

 

[TomEvans]

That's untrue.

If Geordi had been simply using the hologram for informational purposes, then he would not have had the computer synthesize a personality for it, so that he could—in his own words—get personal on the holodeck, after he had been soundly rejected by his earlier date and had used Guinan as a sounding board about seemingly being unable to hit it off with women.

The hologram acted that way only because Geordi ordered the computer to synthesize the personality, an act completely unnecessary had he only been using the hologram to obtain information.

P.S. That's not remotely close to deus ex machina.

As I understand it, he simply had the hologram act like the real person, since he wanted to understand how she THOUGHT when designing the ship. He did not tell it how to act, but simply thought that he had a lot in common with the real person as a result.

 

[Mojochi]

TNG too often used avoidance to create a plot when candor would disarm a situation instantly. Peak Performance has always annoyed me in that way. Picard could have said "The Enterprise and Hathaway are engaged in a training exercise. Piss off, Ferengi." and that should have been the end of it.

This was honestly a very common practice for all TV show writing in those days, & might still be, on occasion. Shows like Lost used to infuriate me with drama being manufactured from characters simply omitting things they know, which would be common to divulge.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Prior to adding a personality 'representation' it's just a computer talking in a dry, slow monotone. Geordi doesn't even ask for a hologram of Leah intentionally. The computer does it for him to his surprise. After it did, he requested an upgrade hoping it would give more useful answers and a more natural interaction rather than be a creepy statue that stares blankly at him between questions. Adding a personality made the hologram less annoying. Maybe to you that's completely unnecessary, but it wouldn't be to everyone. Especially if he's looking for 'someone' to bounce ideas off of and be challenged which makes the debate records relevant.

Again, where's the rest of his engineering staff? Are they totally useless?

 

[Mojochi]

Again, where's the rest of his engineering staff? Are they totally useless?

And where is Troi, the counselor/psychologist while Scotty is literally drunk in a holodeck, struggling to fit into a whole new century? Plot convenience trumps everything. She spent more time humoring Mark Twain. It's fair to assume the ship's engine designer is a useful collaboration, even beyond his own team

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And where is Troi, the counselor/psychologist while Scotty is literally drunk in a holodeck, struggling to fit into a whole new century? Plot convenience trumps everything. She spent more time humoring Mark Twain. It's fair to assume the ship's engine designer is a useful collaboration, even beyond his own team

Not to the exclusion of his own team, who are totally absent.

Another flaw in an episode written seasons later doesn't excuse the flaws in this episode.