I officially began my journey through all Star Trek on October 9th...

[Hippocrates Noah]

Yeah, it was probably more of a visual gimmick than anything but I think it's somewhat practical to have saucer separation considering that the Galaxy class was carrying families. The problem is that most of the time they just sort of take the attitude of "they knew what they signed up for" and put those families in danger anyway. But when they separated in Encounter and Arsenal of Freedom it made sense to separate and not unnecessarily put the innocent people in danger. So why didn't they always do that? It's probably more because if they always did it they'd be separating the saucer section pretty much every other episode and the gimmick would get tedious. The plan in BOBW is kind of convoluted but it doesn't seem that stupid. Since they'd briefed Picard about some possible trickery involving separating they bet that Locutus would automatically assume it was that very same trick and so he'd focus entirely on the bigger threat of the two. They tricked him by using a trick he already knew about, they just used it for another purpose than what was originally planned.

And Shalashaska... CONGRATS!!!. TNG is under your belt but don't be so sad you still have 4 movies to watch. You haven't seen the last of those guys.

 

[Griffeytrek]

All good things must come to an end...

Five months ago, I started The Next Generation. Today, I finished it. Five months ago, after watching the very first episode, Encounter at Farpoint, I was somewhat hesitant of these new characters, this new Enterprise, this whole new galaxy. In this thread, I posted something along the lines of "I miss Kirk, Spock and Bones. I want to go back and see them again". I wasn't ready to move on.

Since then, I've had the chance to venture into the lives of Captain Picard, Commander Riker, Data, Geordi, Worf, Troi and Crusher on a daily basis. I've had the chance to see my friends every day! I got to see how their relationships evolved and what problem they had to solve every episode. I got to see the new crew of the new Enterprise trek among the stars! Seven seasons later and it's all over.

Now... what are my thoughts? Watching All Good Things was a delicate, emotional and wonderful two hours spent. So many hours of my life have been spent with these characters, I wasn't totally ready to say goodbye! I watched as Picard went back in time to his first arrival aboard the Enterprise-D shortly prior to the pilot episode. I watched Picard and the rest of the crew go trekking around the galaxy 25 years in the future. I saw laser beams fired at other ships, I saw Klingon ships explode, I even saw two Enterprises destroyed (temporarily). Yet, after all of it, we ended with the crew of the Enterprise playing a game of poker. When it hit me that it was all over, I felt like had been on the receiving end of a punch in the gut. Yet, it was tied up in such a neat bow and wrapped so nicely that I can't feel anything but ready to move on after that. It was perfect.

I'm not good at writing this kind of stuff, so I don't want to keep it too long. But I really sincerely enjoyed watching all of The Next Generation, you wouldn't believe the impact it's made on me. Its stories made me laugh, made me cry, and maybe a little angry at times. It taught me how to treat myself, treat others, and what to strive for more than anything.

Do I think it's better than the original? I don't know, fuck comparisons, I'm not ready to make those in my current state. Nevertheless, I say this a lot, but I hope you enjoyed reading my impressions as I went through the series (I enjoyed writing them). Let's get back to Deep Space Nine, and this time... for good.

That is... until Generations comes up, which luckily for me, comes up soon enough mid-season 3. But a movie is a movie and a TV show is a TV show. TNG was a wonderful TV show. I'm gonna miss watching it, that's for sure...

Not good at writing this stuff? You strike me as perfect at it. And yeah that is pretty much how we all felt after seeing All Good Things for the first time. All said and done it was as perfect an ending to the series. Heck to any of the Star Trek series, as we could ever hope for, or ever received. "What We Leave Behind" comes closest to it. But is much less self contained. All Good Things, and particularly its last scene stands as what is perhaps the entire franchises highest moment. It earned that years Hugo Award for a reason.

Oh and one little detail from the episode, since I was rambling about the studio models earlier. Go look at the Blu Ray version of the very very last shot in All Good Things. That last slow panning beauty shot of the Enterprise-D. Look at the saucer and the skin. How it ripples unevenly. There are even a few cracks evident. You can really really see the state that the poor beloved model was in by that point in production as the years of filming with hot lights both external and internal took their toll.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Yeah, it was probably more of a visual gimmick than anything but I think it's somewhat practical to have saucer separation considering that the Galaxy class was carrying families. The problem is that most of the time they just sort of take the attitude of "they knew what they signed up for" and put those families in danger anyway. But when they separated in Encounter and Arsenal of Freedom it made sense to separate and not unnecessarily put the innocent people in danger.

Separation could have been used more effectively than it actually was. The saucer could have conducted a diplomatic mission or planetary survey while the stardrive dealt with a humanitarian crisis. The first sign of the Borg in Descent, the saucer could have been parked at a starbase. It should offer a lot of flexibility to fulfilling various administrative, political and scientific functions. That said, I still feel that it made little sense to remove the Enterprise from the scene when crewmen were under fire, and I don't see how safe the saucer would be without warp drive if the Enterprise could only transport it a small distance before returning to the scene. Perhaps when confronted by a small fleet from a lesser military power, separation might provide more tactical options. Against more advanced Romulan and Klingon ships, especially under cloak, I would have my doubts.

 

[Griffeytrek]

You have a keen eye! I only noticed it now that you point it out.

Did they use this same model in filming Generations? Or did they build a whole new one?

They used both the 4' model and the old heavy 6' model for Generations. Plus the smaller light duty models. They did not build a new physical one. It was extremely rare when Paramount would build a new model. For example the 1701 refit was the same physical model through all the movies. Just redressed, cleaned up. Repaired and repainted (and yeah much like the D here, the 1701-A was looking pretty ragged by Undiscovered Country.) I would have to go back and check, but If I recall there really were astonishingly few if any new physical models built for Generations. By that point they had begun the process of rebuilding many of the ships as Digital CGI models. In fact the non Enterprise ships seen in Generations were largely newly made CGI. We see the first instance of the Nebula class being rendered as a CGI model. A model that would then be used extensively in DS9 and Voyager. Also they created a CGI Galaxy class at this point. While we see it for the first time in the series 2 finale for DS9, Generations was well into production at that point, so it was part of its resources and the model likely came out of its budget. The last major Studio models were created for or before First Contact. The Enterprise in First Contact is a brand new studio model (sadly never used again as they started using CGI afterward), Before that we got the Defiant over in DS9 and the USS Voyager from Voyager. Other than alien of the week kitbashes pretty much everything past those three was CGI.

Even when they weren't using CGI they started using old school clever tricks to avoid building new models where they could. The models could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for a fully lit studio Enterprise by that point. There are a few DS9 episodes where multiple Klingon Birds of Prey are seen swooping around. Yeah not to ruin the magic for you... but they're actually Hallmark Christmas Ornaments.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The Jem'Hadar as a species were really badass. Damn if they didn't give the Federation a serious ass-kicking this episode. You know, I get the sense that the surprise destruction of the USS Odyssey was a metaphor to the end of TNG shortly prior to this episode. I almost thought it was the Enterprise-D docked at Deep Space 9 at first.

I think it was meant to be a statement of independence from Behr. And they were given the Galaxy model something to play with, and wanted to do something spectacular.

 

[TonyLeung82]

Speaking of Galaxy class models and CGI, I just watched The Jem'Hadar.

So is this where the series begins to pick up? Do I still have to worry about finding a good episode and then having to endure three mediocre/bad ones after?

The Jem'Hadar as a species were really badass. Damn if they didn't give the Federation a serious ass-kicking this episode. You know, I get the sense that the surprise destruction of the USS Odyssey was a metaphor to the end of TNG shortly prior to this episode. I almost thought it was the Enterprise-D docked at Deep Space 9 at first.

It was a good episode, the roots of the oncoming war with the Dominion have been planted. Hopefully we can begin to make some much-needed progress!

Man, I will never forget this moment, as I saw the first time the destruction of USS Odyssey. Of course in your mind you had the USS Enterprise. In some way you can say, the authors of DS9 wanted with the destruction make clear, that TNG was over. Or in other words: Fu...You, TNG
With this Dominion Story, the series itself got better. I am jealous of you, you can still watch it without knowing the story. I can not

 

[Griffeytrek]

Speaking of Galaxy class models and CGI, I just watched The Jem'Hadar.

So is this where the series begins to pick up? Do I still have to worry about finding a good episode and then having to endure three mediocre/bad ones after?

The Jem'Hadar as a species were really badass. Damn if they didn't give the Federation a serious ass-kicking this episode. You know, I get the sense that the surprise destruction of the USS Odyssey was a metaphor to the end of TNG shortly prior to this episode. I almost thought it was the Enterprise-D docked at Deep Space 9 at first.

It was a good episode, the roots of the oncoming war with the Dominion have been planted. Hopefully we can begin to make some much-needed progress!

The good to mediocre ratio does pick up steadily from here. But never fully goes away. Until season 7. Although DS9 probably has the lowest number of outright bad episodes for any of the series.

The pre credit opening scene of the next episode in your rotation is pretty much one of the defining moments that screams in a subtle way "Sisco is not Picard, This is not TNG, and Rodenberry is no longer with us!" You said you wished that Sisco was a bit more Hawk. Well... It begins. As we saw with all Good Things, Picard was ultimately a diplomat. Among the best. Sisco is... Not that. Starting now the new team in charge of DS9 points Sisco in a different direction than either predecessor.

Going forward this is also the point where the main production and oversight on the show started to shift. Bergman and Braga moved over to the new Flagship show of the new UPN Network, and largely left the little remaining syndicated show to its own devices. Under Ira Behr's talented hands and some amazing writers such as Ron Moore DS9 started to thrive. It also helped that this is when Babylon 5 started to also get real good, and the competition and friendly rivalry between the production teams fed the creative fires.

 

[Griffeytrek]

I got impatient and started season 3 right away.

Why did no one tell me this show would look 10x times better!? Holy cow. Did the budget go way up? Did they hire a magician to replace the old cinematographer?

I'm already way past those last two seasons. This is just like the jump in production value from season 1/2 of TNG and season 3, if not better. I'm pumped to get watching.

The Defiant's a pretty cool ship, BTW. Not so elegant, but it shoots like a fucking tank. I'm a little confused why Kira and Odo are needed on a Starfleet ship when they don't work for Starfleet, I thought it'd be smarter to keep at least SOME cover back on the station. Starfleet officers should be protecting Starfleet property, Bajoran officers should be protecting Bajoran property.

Oh, and Jem'Hadar stay badass. These Starfleet fellas are so unprepared lol.

A big part of it is between Season 2 and 3 the CGI tech vastly improved. Plus they were making broader use of it with DS9, Generations and Voyager all in production. The graphics power and capabilities were improving by leaps and bounds season to season and they were no longer constrained by practical effects as much. Plus I believe they were starting to shoot the video to a higher standard, with the assumption of better quality tv's at the receiving end and higher quality cable delivery. You actually see the same quality leaps season to season in Babylon 5, which was in production at the same time. So it wasn't just the show. It was the underlying technology that was evolving at a breakneck pace.

Kira and Odo on the Defiant was largely a "needs of the story" thing. And not really the regular crew compliment. Strangely Quark is probably the most common non Starfleet passenger going forward. That "Chekov'like" tactical role that Kira is filling in The Search will eventually be split between two other characters that you already know.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Going forward this is also the point where the main production and oversight on the show started to shift. Bergman and Braga moved over to the new Flagship show of the new UPN Network, and largely left the little remaining syndicated show to its own devices. Under Ira Behr's talented hands and some amazing writers such as Ron Moore DS9 started to thrive. It also helped that this is when Babylon 5 started to also get real good, and the competition and friendly rivalry between the production teams fed the creative fires.

Actually, Berman left DS9 to Michael Piller in those first seasons, and Braga had no involvement in the series. Putting on Generations and Voyager consumed most of their time.

 

[Griffeytrek]

Actually, Berman left DS9 to Michael Piller in those first seasons, and Braga had no involvement in the series. Putting on Generations and Voyager consumed most of their time.

I stand corrected. Although I thought Berman retained executive producer credits and a tendency to meddle until they were distracted with the new shiny? And yeah I always forget Braga skipped over DS9. In hindsight it is easy to see. Nobody gets devolved into lizards. (Major Spoiler Shala nothing like "Genesis" happens in DS9... Not even to O'Brien!)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I stand corrected. Although I thought Berman retained executive producer credits and a tendency to meddle until they were distracted with the new shiny? And yeah I always forget Braga skipped over DS9. In hindsight it is easy to see. Nobody gets devolved into lizards. (Major Spoiler Shala nothing like "Genesis" happens in DS9... Not even to O'Brien!)

No, it's not clear that Berman had any positive creative input into DS9 past the pilot/bible. If you believe Behr, Berman might give a thumbs up or down to something that Behr might want to do. I'd hate to spoil things for our OP, but one example was the inclusion of the Defiant on the show.

ETA: @Shalashaska No plot points are spoiled, but you will see some of the cool battles to come. You may want to listen, but not watch.

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[Griffeytrek]

I thought the one big thing that Berman did routinely give thumbs down to during the first two seasons was requests to move away from the traditional Star Trek episodic reset switch. It was Berman who largely insisted at the beginning that DS9 must maintain that same format as TNG and TOS where the status quo was mainly reset at the end of each episode, and each episode was self contained. It wasn't until Season 3 when they were finally able to shake that loose from him and be allowed to start doing progressive advancing arc stories that built steadily over multiple episodes, while remaining embedded in the otherwise self contained episodes. With few exceptions TNG can largely be watched in any order and the only confusing points are mainly the uniforms and Riker's facial hair. The bulk of the episode to episode continuity starts and stops with Data's cat and similar. Whereas starting from The Gem'Hadar and even a bit before DS9 really needs to be watched in order. Especially the deeper into it you get.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I thought the one big thing that Berman did routinely give thumbs down to during the first two seasons was requests to move away from the traditional Star Trek episodic reset switch.

Hence not positive creative input. Throughout the series, he exercised a right to refuse when it came to the direction of the series.

It was Berman who largely insisted at the beginning that DS9 must maintain that same format as TNG and TOS where the status quo was mainly reset at the end of each episode, and each episode was self contained. It wasn't until Season 3 when they were finally able to shake that loose from him and be allowed to start doing progressive advancing arc stories that built steadily over multiple episodes, while remaining embedded in the otherwise self contained episodes.

I can't confirm it, but I think that Behr hoodwinked Berman when it came to the most substantial changes.

Spoiler

Berman was not interested in a long, drawn-out war. He wanted it all to come to a tidy end in season six, and he gave Behr four episodes to wrap it up. Of course, the writing became more complicated, to the point that not only did the arc go to six episodes, it did nothing to wrap up the war.

 

[Griffeytrek]

I don't question that any of the ST shows needed an effective gatekeeper to keep it on the rails. Which Berman did effectively. I do find it interesting however that the best outcome came at that period where he was most distracted by multiple projects, and in turn had to rely more on extending a greater degree of trust to his more established show running team, without obsessively micromanaging. Not so much Hoodwinked as DS9's team likely had a better environment with which to convince him of what they wanted. They weren't the flagship show holding down the franchise legacy, and they weren't the movies. I think the Defiant sums it up nicely. "We need a teeny tiny Battleship... Just don't tell Rick it's a Battleship!" Berman probably had an extra special bottle of scotch in his desk for when Behr and Moore showed up at his office smiling.

Oh that video on the Defiant is also great for reminding us how, much like the Star Wars folks, the Star Trek production team never ever throws away or forgets a design. Anything passed over today will find a use as something else tomorrow. Case in point that early Defiant concept that became the Nova class science vessels.

 

[Hippocrates Noah]

Speaking of Galaxy class models and CGI, I just watched The Jem'Hadar.

So is this where the series begins to pick up? Do I still have to worry about finding a good episode and then having to endure three mediocre/bad ones after?

The Jem'Hadar as a species were really badass. Damn if they didn't give the Federation a serious ass-kicking this episode. You know, I get the sense that the surprise destruction of the USS Odyssey was a metaphor to the end of TNG shortly prior to this episode. I almost thought it was the Enterprise-D docked at Deep Space 9 at first.

It was a good episode, the roots of the oncoming war with the Dominion have been planted. Hopefully we can begin to make some much-needed progress!

I think most people would say Season 4 is probably where it starts really picking up. I haven't rewatched DS9 as a whole though so I can't really say for certain, I watched the whole thing once and I've watched specific episodes multiple times but I'm not as versed in DS9 as TOS or TNG. I do know that you have some really great episodes coming up though, a couple of my personal faves in the whole franchise. Our Man Bashir is great if you enjoy James Bond movies and Trials And Tribble-ations is pure awesome if you're down for a TOS/DS9 cross-over.

 

[Griffeytrek]

The general rule for DS9 is each season is better than the one before, as a whole. The overall best episodes are scattered throughout, but the ratio of good to bad improves with each passing season. So there really isn't any sudden turning point. Well beyond The Search, where they get the Defiant, thus changing the fixed location dynamic, and Way of the Warrior where they get a new cast member to shake things up.

Oh and Shala, I am particularly curious about your take on a few upcoming episodes. Defiant, Heart of Stone, (which will completely shatter your views on two characters... Just not the two you think.), Way of the Warrior for its cast change, and most importantly The Visitor.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The Defiant didn't really change their ability to go to other locations...they'd been using runabouts in the first couple seasons to do plenty of TNG-style POTW episodes. The Defiant just gave them something more badass to do them in.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The movie has it's highlights and I think visually it is gorgeous (outside of recycled BoP explosions).
The problem with this movie is, that it's trying to use elements that should have been pretty epic for a theatrical release with and do a quiet and thoughtful character story about coping with loss, aging and other stuff.
Kirk dying alone was how imagined it to be. He was wrong about that, but he died doing what he always wanted to do. making a difference, even if it was in a small way with fisticuffs on a rusting bridge.
But he saved billions doing so...

The Nexus storyline has it's logical problems, the movie failed to adress.
It was this movie's macguffin to get the story going and get the heroes together.

Bad stuff happens just because and sometimes you can not do anything about it so make sure you don't regret anything is a bit of a theme here.

Over time you might appreciate the movie more for what it is, or you might not.

The next one will be a rollercoaster, though.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Maybe you'll find the next one, First Contact to be better.

Speaking of Generations, I have a question. Is it true that Whoopi Goldberg is totally uncredited in her role in this movie? As far as I can tell, she's not in the opening credits and I don't think I've seen her name in the closing credits either.

 

[JesterFace]

'Generations' is a really bad movie. TNG should have never gone to the big screen. 'All Good Things...' was a perfect ending to the series and then... 'Generations' and all the other ones pooped all over it, eww!

Like I've said before, for me TNG ends with 'All Good Things...'. I'm not interested in any of the movies.

 

[Griffeytrek]

Generations was in a weird place production wise. They wanted to go big screen, but still do it on the cheap. And at that point they were also still limited by the TNG's designs.

Case in point was the Enterprise-D. The ship was really designed for the small screen. It's meant to give a bit of forced perspective front to back in order to account for the limited depth you have to work with with traditional television. But things move differently on the big screen than they do on tv. So a design that looks majestic on TV looks awkward in hi res widescreen cinema. And vice versus.

If you want some fun in Generations, go back and watch it while paying attention to every bodies uniforms. Make note of just how randomly non uniform they all are all of a sudden. Especially the background characters. They pulled out everything they had in wardrobe and just threw them on people. Early TNG, new TNG, new ds9 jumpsuits, it's all there. I think Riker jumps back and forth between his new uniform and a DS9 work uniform during scenes. It's hilarious.

Oh and speaking of deliciously awkward Uniform moments, do you remember what annoyed you about "Thine Own Self". The whole Troi promotion thing? The question of Troi's competency as a bridge officer? And why Picard for the longest time preferred she stay plainclothes on the Bridge? Yeah, pay special attention to what happens when Riker gives the order "Take us out of orbit!" Once you realize what happens there it makes it clear. Nope not an alternate universe. It's been Quietly setup for years. Picard is a genius! The rest of the crew is a pack of badly trained chimps. And Troi is in fact everything we have secretly ever thought she was.

As an example for how bad Generations budget was, I think it was the only movie for which virtually no new studio models were built. They did a full redress of the Excellsior model, cleaned up the Enterprise-D ones, used stock footage where they could. I think they built a new close up partial model of the damaged Enterprise B deflector area. Not much beyond that.

First Contact is on the other side of the spectrum. Very very high production values. All new everything. New major Studio Models and a ton of new CGI models. It is a big budget spectacular.