Shran may have been the best part of the whole series for me...........
I officially began my journey through all Star Trek on October 9th...
- Thread starter Shalashaska
- Start date
Have fun with the two parter.
It's a story that is as socially relevant as it's ever been.
It's a story that is as socially relevant as it's ever been.
On the bright side new Trek is only a few months away.
I watched the finale................
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.................
but won't hijack the thread posting spoilers till @Shalashaska has seen.
..................
.................
but won't hijack the thread posting spoilers till @Shalashaska has seen.
For what it's worth, I lke TATV much better than the alien Nazi episodes.Wonder if we could burn through two pages before tonight/tomorrow morning. Finale on page 100!
Of course the cast is going to resent Frakes and Sirtis taking up their finale time, and dedicated ENT fans the same. The Death of characters also polarizes people and that's an added element but I have problems with none of these things.
Is TATV a great finale? No. But it's not anywhere near my bottom ranked Trek episodes.
Any other reactions I'll keep to myself till they are seen.
RAMA
Agreed. Terra Prime should have been the ending. It really was in some ways. It was the then current showrunners finale. Bergman and Braga came back to do their one shot finale. Terra Prime was the final labor of love of those making the show. Where all the seeds of what would be the Federation were planted. Let you head cannon view it as the true ending. Just ignore that other thing.
I would suggest after you watch TATV, come back and look at your wonderful post above about that final 2 parter. It will help to drive home what you are feeling. Your post above perfectly illustrates why TATV might be the most hated Trek episode. Not the objectively worst, but the most hated.
Look at your above posts about Archers Speech. About Terra Prime. About the growth in certain characters. That is the place the Coto's left us. The words and the speech that they gave us. Then put it side by side with what comes next... We'll talk more after you have seen TATV.
I would suggest after you watch TATV, come back and look at your wonderful post above about that final 2 parter. It will help to drive home what you are feeling. Your post above perfectly illustrates why TATV might be the most hated Trek episode. Not the objectively worst, but the most hated.
Look at your above posts about Archers Speech. About Terra Prime. About the growth in certain characters. That is the place the Coto's left us. The words and the speech that they gave us. Then put it side by side with what comes next... We'll talk more after you have seen TATV.
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I like the "boldly go" montage at the end.
I never had a problem with that aspect of the episode. I thought it was an awesome idea. If the Enterprise portions had been great, it would have worked perfectly. But unfortunately they filled them with mundane small talk, boring action sequences and a crappy story.
Don't worry, it was just a badly written, historically incorrect holonovel that Deanna used to emotionally blackmail Riker. Or maybe this is an alternate timeline version of TNG's The Pegasus, when the TCW still wasn't over. Daniels corrected it I'm sure of that.
And you became a fleet captain here in the mean time
i think those were the movies that inspired him to watch everything else?
They could've done it in a way where the Riker/Troi scenes weren't set during TNG when they were much younger and slimmer. They could've done it in a way that didn't make all of the ENT crew feel like silly holographic projections and they could've cut all that talk about the Pegasus, as if that was AT ALL relevant to the episode or show.
Maybe Riker and Troi are talking to a classroom of kids, teaching them about the first starship Enterprise to ever "boldly go", the first crew, and the "flashbacks" (which take up 90-95% of the episode) gradually traverse through time, basically giving us a synopsis of what would've happened in seasons 5, 6 and 7, as well as everything after that. Infrequent cuts to Riker and Troi giving a short narration lead on to the next time period or big event, showing the real crew of the NX-01 doing things that weren't downright miserable to watch. Like seeing Trip and T'Pol clearly missing each other after splitting up six years earlier, and then seeing Trip just die while chef Riker's having a laugh with holographic Phlox.
So many ways they could've gone about it. Hell, maybe they could've just done a straightforward finale without the hand-holding of the TNG cast! A finale for the people who spent four years working on ENT, for the fans of ENT and solely those people!
If they had set the Troi Riker scenes as post TNG. At the point where he was being offered the Titan (ie actually make that cannon). Let his decision making process be about a major life change. That portion of it could have worked. But to go back to a well received but middle of the pack and obscure episode of TNG for ENT's finale? That the last words spoken on screen were "Computer End Program"? That as you noticed we didn't even get the damn speech!?!?! Everything about the episode was just wrong. The only thing missing was Lizard sex. It reminds me of some other final episodes of beloved series that felt the need to blow everything up or completely destroy what they had built. MASH Mad About You and St. Elsewhere come to mind. Those ones treated their characters very badly. I mean just look at one of the well liked supporting and recurring characters. Shran. Just in the prior episode we saw the ultimate end to his character arc. The final payoff of all the journey moving from mistructful somewhat xenophobic alien to a true friend and one of the founders of the Federation. And then we got the pathetic louse we saw here... WTF!?! And Trip? Trip just goes without saying.
Arrrghhh! 
Yeah, it was terrible. When I first saw it I tried to like it - I really tried to see what they were going for and on paper I could... I don't actually believe Bermaga intended it to be insulting or whatever. They had decent intentions but WHY!?! There is no way on reflection that I can see this as a good episode.
I totally agree about setting this later on when Riker's making a decision about Titan or something. Why, exactly, would they set this during that episode of all random times? I mean it's a good episode of TNG but I had to search my memory to figure out where and when we were, which totally threw me. And honestly my first reaction while watching the episode was Why the hell are they wearing the old uniforms?! I was literally outraged for a second that they were wearing out-of-date uniforms at a time visibly around/after Nemesis. Because surely they weren't trying to convince us that the actors were 10 years younger than they were?! Trying to imagine this taking place within that episode is just beyond silliness. It makes the whole episode laughable even if the concept had been better.
My second major point of contention is of course the insult to our characters. To be honest, even when I try and visualise this as a 'Valentine to the fans', I don't get it. This is a Valentine to TNG - maybe to the connection between TNG and Enterprise. But where are DS9 and Voyager? They were part of this era and they are nowhere to be found. Maybe some kind of wild story that incorporated all 4 Treks of this era would make sense but not such a focused, TNG-centric episode (and frankly one that doesn't even focus on the best TNG characters). It just comes across as 'Remember TNG, guys?!' And frankly if I wanted to remember 24th century Trek, I would be remember DS9 and Voyager too but not just feeling nostalgic for TNG. AND ANYWAY THIS IS BLOODY ENTERPRISE! Which, through all its ups and downs, I have finally come to love and feel invested in.
Which brings me to the time-skip and where all our Enterprise characters are now. As in, we get the impression that nothing has changed, Trip and T'Pol just sort of stayed icily neutral towards each other even after the beautiful and intimate and tragic ending of the previous episode. It doesn't quite feel like anything has happened in the interim. No promotions, no changes, no big wars, no life-altering adventures. Stasis, boredom and a clinical sense overhwelming the actual well-developed Trip and T'Pol relationship. Which frankly makes no sense given where we were at the end of the last episode. And why even do it? Because if they were going to kill Trip, they might as well have had him and T'Pol together at the time if they wanted more emotional impact.
But oh wait, they obviously didn't.
Because they couldn't possible have killed Trip in such a ridiculous, nonsensical and blatantly contrived way and then skipped over much of the aftermath if they wanted it to have any meaning or impact on the viewer. I absolutely refuse to believe that Trip died there in that way. It.isn't.canon.It.can't.be.
And then towards the end, I'm trying to pretend the Trip thing didn't happen, I'm trying to imagine that Riker and Troi are slimmer, I'm trying to pretend there must have been a bunch of grand adventures that we just haven't seen but we can all write fan fiction about the final years of the Enterprise NX-1701's journeys, I'm trying to get into the fact that Archer is going to make this really beautiful and important speech that will top the one he made in the previous episode and will really make this about what Enterprise is and means and actually make this episode significant and maybe finally bring a tear to my eye and move me and make me look back at the show with deep fondness and admiration for our characters and pride in Archer and all that good, wonderful stuff and they have this big open scene and huge crowd and everything is set for something amazing and...
Computer end program.
Yeah, it was terrible. When I first saw it I tried to like it - I really tried to see what they were going for and on paper I could... I don't actually believe Bermaga intended it to be insulting or whatever. They had decent intentions but WHY!?! There is no way on reflection that I can see this as a good episode.I totally agree about setting this later on when Riker's making a decision about Titan or something. Why, exactly, would they set this during that episode of all random times? I mean it's a good episode of TNG but I had to search my memory to figure out where and when we were, which totally threw me. And honestly my first reaction while watching the episode was Why the hell are they wearing the old uniforms?! I was literally outraged for a second that they were wearing out-of-date uniforms at a time visibly around/after Nemesis. Because surely they weren't trying to convince us that the actors were 10 years younger than they were?! Trying to imagine this taking place within that episode is just beyond silliness. It makes the whole episode laughable even if the concept had been better.
My second major point of contention is of course the insult to our characters. To be honest, even when I try and visualise this as a 'Valentine to the fans', I don't get it. This is a Valentine to TNG - maybe to the connection between TNG and Enterprise. But where are DS9 and Voyager? They were part of this era and they are nowhere to be found. Maybe some kind of wild story that incorporated all 4 Treks of this era would make sense but not such a focused, TNG-centric episode (and frankly one that doesn't even focus on the best TNG characters). It just comes across as 'Remember TNG, guys?!' And frankly if I wanted to remember 24th century Trek, I would be remember DS9 and Voyager too but not just feeling nostalgic for TNG. AND ANYWAY THIS IS BLOODY ENTERPRISE! Which, through all its ups and downs, I have finally come to love and feel invested in.
Which brings me to the time-skip and where all our Enterprise characters are now. As in, we get the impression that nothing has changed, Trip and T'Pol just sort of stayed icily neutral towards each other even after the beautiful and intimate and tragic ending of the previous episode. It doesn't quite feel like anything has happened in the interim. No promotions, no changes, no big wars, no life-altering adventures. Stasis, boredom and a clinical sense overhwelming the actual well-developed Trip and T'Pol relationship. Which frankly makes no sense given where we were at the end of the last episode. And why even do it? Because if they were going to kill Trip, they might as well have had him and T'Pol together at the time if they wanted more emotional impact.
But oh wait, they obviously didn't.
Because they couldn't possible have killed Trip in such a ridiculous, nonsensical and blatantly contrived way and then skipped over much of the aftermath if they wanted it to have any meaning or impact on the viewer. I absolutely refuse to believe that Trip died there in that way. It.isn't.canon.It.can't.be.
And then towards the end, I'm trying to pretend the Trip thing didn't happen, I'm trying to imagine that Riker and Troi are slimmer, I'm trying to pretend there must have been a bunch of grand adventures that we just haven't seen but we can all write fan fiction about the final years of the Enterprise NX-1701's journeys, I'm trying to get into the fact that Archer is going to make this really beautiful and important speech that will top the one he made in the previous episode and will really make this about what Enterprise is and means and actually make this episode significant and maybe finally bring a tear to my eye and move me and make me look back at the show with deep fondness and admiration for our characters and pride in Archer and all that good, wonderful stuff and they have this big open scene and huge crowd and everything is set for something amazing and...
Computer end program.
I have been keeping an eye on this thread since I discovered it months ago just for your reaction to TATV. I wanted to see if a new fan had the same reaction as we did when it aired.
YUP.........you did. The thing that shocked me more than the episode itself was that Berman so badly misjudged the pulse of fandom. I remember before and after the airing he hyped it as a "love letter to the fans". Holllllllllly shit. Really. You kill off the most likable guy on the show and put the focus on characters from a completely different show?
I was already pissed that the show was being cancelled just when it had started to be interesting to me, then they ended it like this. Yes I was insulted. Glad to see fresh eyes have the same take away!
To expand on my previous post now that Shal has seen it:
IMHO, it insults:
Fans of Enterprise
(for focusing on TNG characters and shoehorning a random TNG episode into this series)
Fans of TNG
(for adding this incredibly lame subplot to a decent TNG episode and having two beloved characters act stupid)
Fans of certain TNG characters (Riker and Troi)
(mainly Riker, for suggesting he's so unsure of himself as to need to go playact in a holodeck simulation to come to a conscientious decision, and to waste such time during a critical shipboard emergency)
Fans of Trip Tucker
(For fucking killing him for really a stupid and random reason!!)
Fans of a certain TNG episode
(Pegasus was a decent, well-written episode and this lame shit didn't belong attached to it)
Ron Moore
(Who wrote Pegasus)
Fans of good writing
Good writers
(Okay, I'm just getting sarcastic with those two)
People with common sense
(Who the HELL would think it's a good idea, in the middle of a critical emergency situation where your ship is trapped in an asteroid, to take 40 minutes off to change into a chef's costume and play-act in a historical drama, thinking it might help you make a decision? Who the hell, ever, has NEEDED to do such a thing to make a decision?? Has Berman or Braga? Is this how they think real people act in the service? This just helps convince me that neither of them has had any life experience outside of college.
People
Television
Science fiction
(Okay, now I'm just being bitter)
IMHO, it insults:
Fans of Enterprise
(for focusing on TNG characters and shoehorning a random TNG episode into this series)
Fans of TNG
(for adding this incredibly lame subplot to a decent TNG episode and having two beloved characters act stupid)
Fans of certain TNG characters (Riker and Troi)
(mainly Riker, for suggesting he's so unsure of himself as to need to go playact in a holodeck simulation to come to a conscientious decision, and to waste such time during a critical shipboard emergency)
Fans of Trip Tucker
(For fucking killing him for really a stupid and random reason!!)
Fans of a certain TNG episode
(Pegasus was a decent, well-written episode and this lame shit didn't belong attached to it)
Ron Moore
(Who wrote Pegasus)
Fans of good writing
Good writers
(Okay, I'm just getting sarcastic with those two)
People with common sense
(Who the HELL would think it's a good idea, in the middle of a critical emergency situation where your ship is trapped in an asteroid, to take 40 minutes off to change into a chef's costume and play-act in a historical drama, thinking it might help you make a decision? Who the hell, ever, has NEEDED to do such a thing to make a decision?? Has Berman or Braga? Is this how they think real people act in the service? This just helps convince me that neither of them has had any life experience outside of college.
People
Television
Science fiction
(Okay, now I'm just being bitter)
So... after such a large Trek overdose, any thoughts on what your favorite Series, crew or actor is? Any episodes that stuck out? Good and bad.
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