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I officially began my journey through all Star Trek on October 9th...

Shalashaska said:
Speaking of Thine Own Self, how ridiculous is it that Troi is now commander and outranking both Data and LaForge? Data is second officer, so technically, he still outranks her in the line of command (which is why he SHOULDN'T be calling her "sir", as Troi suggested in the end (that's another reason why she shouldn't be commander, she doesn't even understand the proper line of command!)), but it's still ridiculous. Tactical and strategic planning would be out of her field.
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To go back to this one. Because there are some things to Thine Own Self that tend to annoy fans or leave them hotly debating this episode. The big one being the clearly incompetent Troi getting promoted above Data. Who is unquestionably the most valuable officer on the ship. The Captain goto right hand man. Yet in seven years Data never rates a promotion, does he? Almost as bad as Harry Kim. This case with Troi seems egregious.

My gut feeling, that is never reinforced by dialogue, is Starfleet may be quietly freezing Data at a safe rank that does not yet raise more questions. His next rank, Full Commander would be one where he could function as the Captain of a smaller vessel, such as the Defiant. This may yet be a bridge too far for Starfleets acceptance of Android or AI officers. As it opens up a number of deep internal debates. Once you let one AI take permanent command you set the precedent. What stops the ships computer from being the Captain and giving the orders? What rank does the Warp Core get assigned? Just a minefield Starfleet clearly was not ready to deal with during TNG.
 
Griffeytrek said:
My gut feeling, that is never reinforced by dialogue, is Starfleet may be quietly freezing Data at a safe rank that does not yet raise more questions. His next rank, Full Commander would be one where he could function as the Captain of a smaller vessel, such as the Defiant. This may yet be a bridge too far for Starfleets acceptance of Android or AI officers. As it opens up a number of deep internal debates. Once you let one AI take permanent command you set the precedent.
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Agreed. Once you let AIs take command, it's a slippery slope towards the rise of the machines.

Humans First! *raises fist in salute*
 
Griffeytrek said:
To go back to this one. Because there are some things to Thine Own Self that tend to annoy fans or leave them hotly debating this episode. The big one being the clearly incompetent Troi getting promoted above Data. Who is unquestionably the most valuable officer on the ship. The Captain goto right hand man. Yet in seven years Data never rates a promotion, does he? Almost as bad as Harry Kim. This case with Troi seems egregious.

My gut feeling, that is never reinforced by dialogue, is Starfleet may be quietly freezing Data at a safe rank that does not yet raise more questions. His next rank, Full Commander would be one where he could function as the Captain of a smaller vessel, such as the Defiant. This may yet be a bridge too far for Starfleets acceptance of Android or AI officers. As it opens up a number of deep internal debates. Once you let one AI take permanent command you set the precedent. What stops the ships computer from being the Captain and giving the orders? What rank does the Warp Core get assigned? Just a minefield Starfleet clearly was not ready to deal with during TNG.
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I really like your explanation, but I'd also add that promotions seem to sometimes be tied to a particular position. I mean, it's possible he was getting offers to be a commander as an XO but would have had to leave the Enterprise since he would be going from ops into the command path rather than in science/medical departments. Just a thought, though I think yours is probably better.

I just think they all should take lessons in career management from LaForge. He laps Worf and catches up to data no problem ;-)
 
I like this thread, so I won't toss around any thunderbolts...but, y'know, Edit function, yada yada yada.
 
Hi Shalashka,
just want to write that I like your enthusiasm about this episodes you watch currently new. Thats a reason I like this treat, because everyone i know knows nearly every episode of Star Trek. Even when it is an episode worth of discussion (positive/negative), then it is already an old episode (TNG from 80s/90s for example).
But through your threat, that describes it with a fresh passion I feel it again :-) The desire what is about to FEEL Star Trek.
Dont stop, tell us your opinions. I like it.
 
Shalashaska said:
So Wesley Crusher is not only a genius child prodigy on the level of Mozart (as they felt to need to painfully remind us in Journey's End), but now some super-being with the power to control time?
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Yeah, I thought they went a little too far with that angle. The Mozart angle was more than enough to justify the Traveler's interest in him.
 
Shalashaska said:
Did I just watch an episode of DS9 with grandpa Kor, Kang and Koloth fighting with bat'leths?

Yes... yes, I did. And oh, what a glorious episode it was.

I could've recognized those faces with or without forehead ridges in an instant.

They still looked the damn same after almost 30 years.

ʸᵒᵘ ᵏᶰᵒʷ⋅⋅⋅ ᵐᵃʸᵇᵉ ᵗʰᵒˢᵉ ᴷᶫᶦᶰᵍᵒᶰ ᵉᵖᶦˢᵒᵈᵉˢ ᵃʳᵉᶰ'ᵗ ˢᵒ ᵇᵒʳᶦᶰᵍ ᵃᶠᵗᵉʳ ᵃᶫᶫ⋅⋅⋅
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That remains one of my personal favorite episodes. Just the three classic Klingons brought forward. Great chemistry and interactions. Sadly I believe that was one of William Campbell's last performances. (I can never get it out of my personal head cannon that He originated the role of Q as Trelaine, the Squire of Gothos). Minor spoilers, but be happy. You're not done with John Calicos yet. And his future appearances are similarly epic. Michael Ansara has the rare distinction to be one of the few Trek guest stars to play the same character in three different series. I'll leave you to do the math but rest assured the next time you see him will be in a franchise high point.

Shalashaska said:
Also, I feel the need to talk about Genesis.

This episode is retarded. I'm no biology whiz, but eh... I'm pretty sure humans didn't evolve from spiders, and as far as I know, cats have no relation to iguanas.

And why was Worf spitting venom and why did his face look a T Rex's ass?

Someone tell me what the fuck this guy Brannon Braga was smoking.
mjlol.png
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There are no words that can explain or apologize for Genesis. I don't know what it is with Braga and turning people into devolved lizards things. I'm sorry to say you have not seen the last of the trope. It's next appearance while quite some ways away is legendary. I think Genesis is the point in Season 7 where they officially ran out of ideas.

Shalashaska said:
So Wesley Crusher is not only a genius child prodigy on the level of Mozart (as they felt to need to painfully remind us in Journey's End), but now some super-being with the power to control time?

Oh man, this is getting really out of hand. Nevertheless, there's just five more episodes left of TNG out of 176. Regardless of the shoddy writing, I'm going to savour these last few episodes, I won't ever get the chance to watch them with fresh eyes again.
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"So Wesley Crusher is not only a genius child prodigy on the level of Mozart (as they felt to need to painfully remind us in Journey's End), but now some super-being with the power to control time?" Wesley the Super Mutant who can manipulate space in time is the only believable explanation for "hey look Wesley Crushers Girlfriend/Wife is Ashley Judd." My theory is he used time manipulation and she's secretly one of Brendon Braga's super evolved squirrels or such from Genesis. (And it's only a minor spoiler. The Wesley/Ashley Judd as a couple is a deleted scene from one of the later movies. I suspect it was cut when someone pointed out that even in a highly fantastic future SciFi story... Ain't nobody gonna believe that. )

While Sub Rosa is arguably the absolute worst TNG episode ever, Journey's End to me at least is the 7th seasons low point. The moment it hit rock bottom. This is both good and bad. The good news is that you have reached the bottom. It's all uphill from here. The last block ranges from serviceable and competently executed Trek offerings up to some of the shows finest moments.

The bad news is the reason I might actually loathe Journey's End more than Sub Rosa. Sub Rosa was a very very bad one shot throw away episode. One bad hour, never to be mentioned again. Journey's End however is not simply an idiotic and disturbingly hamhandedly racist one shot. No no. It actually sets up Voyager. In ways that stick around for 7 years. It also leads into the next DS9 two parter and some long running threads over there. And is the point of introduction for a major franchise political element (that is far far better used in every other appearance, the Maqui.) so yeah Journey's End is the gift that keeps on giving. It may be said that beautiful flowers start from a bed of shit.

Also (and someone please correct me if I am getting this wrong) it helps if you view certain episodes in relative order, as Journey' End does setup a major Star Trek plot point that weaves through three shows.
TNG Journey's End
DS9 The Maqui 1&2
TNG Premptive Strike
VOY Caretaker 1&2

I'm glad you have been enjoying going through these series. It has been wonderful seeing them again for the first time through your eyes.
 
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I didn't like the Wesley super-being thing, but it didn't bother me too much either. I just kind of ignore that episode. What I did mind was Wesley acting like an emo a-hole in that episode. Wesley never really bothered me as much as he does many people and as he got older (and wasn't on the show as much) I kind of liked him. But then they ruined his big sendoff for me by actually making me hate him right before sending him off. I probably would have been a little misty-eyed watching him go, but because of what a little knob he was in that episode I was like "just shut up and leave".
 
Wesley's abilities were set up way back in Where no one has gone before.
So it didn't exactly came out if the blue.
As has been mentioned, the real problems of the episode lie elsewhere.
It isn't the worst episode by a long shot.
I like the basic idea of Wesley coming back to the ship and finding the crew to be the antagonist, though reluctant, in a situation that forces him to chose between his starting career and conscience.
 
"Where No One Has Gone Before" established that he was a wunderkind comparable to Mozart...not that he had super-powers over time and space.
 
That was hilarious, believe it or not I've never seen it I just thought space herpes sounded funny. My favorite part was "Captains Log. Stardate.... I'm Not Talking To Bones Anymore".
 
I get a kick thinking Wesley is out there being the one improving other alien species' warp drives..
 
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