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I Hate Myself

when you're trying to talk to women, remember, they take a crap like you do. they are human. you can talk to them. i used to be nervous around girls, until i started treating them like boys. (well, considering my peers in high school, i treated the girls nicer) mind you, taking a class in an all-girls school when i went to an all-boys school also helped. when you're one of five boys in a class of thirty, you soon learn to communicate with females.

you definitely need to get out into some kind of social group thing where you meet women and men and you need to accept that you can talk to women.

and you definitely need to stop having your whole existance revolve around finding The One or Miss Right. Don't even try to find Miss Right Now. Just try to be mates with a couple of women first.
 
So that means that yes I am, in fact, a 31-year-old virgin, and that's putting it mildly. I'm a 31-year-old who's never even kissed a woman. Hell, I've never even done as much as hold hands with a woman. This is despite the fact that having a relationship is the one and only thing I actually care about in this world.

Many of the men I've talked to concerning virginity have said that the first time is something that's best just gotten out of the way. In my own case it was with a best friend not the person I was in a relationship with at the time. While you might think your "first time" would of course be better within a relationship, the fact is that virginity can be a social/psycho speed bump. Once you get it behind you that will be one less thing on your list of problems, most guy do get a increase in confidence after the fact. And you won't be the odd man out among your friends.

Almost hate to say it, but Shazam!'s suggestion just might be one option.

I'm guessing that you have no difficulty interacting with female co-workers, store checkers, waitresses, etc., deliberately placing yourself in casual social situations with women might be a way of pushing yourself to the next level. I've talked to councilors before (not a psychologist) and it took a few different ones to find the one who would serve my particular needs, you might wish to look elsewhere.

Personally, I'd hire as many hookers as I could afford.




:borg:
 
Drone, this...
It's not like Shran is consulting a bunch of board-certified psychiatrists here. :vulcan:

That's no reason to say shit to someone. If you don't know what you're talking about, keep your mouth shut. It's good advice for you to follow.

You're an ass, and you should get off your fucking high horse before you fall off and break your neck. I didn't say shit to Shran. If you don't agree with what I say, then you can take your own advice and shut up yourself. What makes you think your advice is better than mine or anyone else's, for that matter?

and this...


You're an ass, and you should get off your fucking high horse before you fall off and break your neck. I didn't say shit to Shran. If you don't agree with what I say, then you can take your own advice and shut up yourself. What makes you think your advice is better than mine or anyone else's, for that matter?

Because I didn't make him feel guilty for his issues like you did.

This coming from a psychoanalyst like yourself? Puh-leeze.

Now I finally get to put someone on my Ignore List. :lol:

...one or the other on their own I could have looked past. I know you felt egged on by JW, but you took it too far. This means an infracton for flaming.
 
So that means that yes I am, in fact, a 31-year-old virgin, and that's putting it mildly. I'm a 31-year-old who's never even kissed a woman. Hell, I've never even done as much as hold hands with a woman. This is despite the fact that having a relationship is the one and only thing I actually care about in this world.

Many of the men I've talked to concerning virginity have said that the first time is something that's best just gotten out of the way.

Depends on the guy...I thought my first time was going to be special and it wasn't I was manipulated into doing something I wanted to wait for...if that makes me sound like a girl then so be it...but I wish it didn't happen with the girl I did it with. :(
 
You know, if you kill them afterwards and get your money back, you can actually afford an infinite number of hookers.

Advanced mathematics; it works. :techman:


And this, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why we say to ALWAYS consult a mental health professional. They have such insight and inventive solutions to any problem. :guffaw:
 
I understand where you're coming from, Admiral Shran, I suffer from a lot of the same anxieties as you, the main difference being that I got over it somewhat. As a result, I've held hands with a lady, and kissed, and had sex, and had conversations about knitting, and rushed to the doctor to get an emergency contraceptive pill, and all the other fun stuff that comes with being in a relationship. :) It wasn't easy, and I often find myself sliding back into my undesirable habits, but I do try not to.

The most important thing to remember is this: We regret more the things we didn't do than the things we tried and failed at. Yes, it's a cliché, but it has the virtue of being true.

There came a time in my life where I had to choose between acting on my feelings for someone and risk making a fool of myself, or lose that opportunity through inaction. I chose the later, and I regretted that choice every day for 7 years. So, when I developed feelings for somebody else, I learned from my mistake and chose the former, because it was much easier to take that chance than to live with the consequences of not doing it. Initially, I was rejected, but through that pain I could take some comfort from knowing that I had at least tried. Later, I succeeded, and that felt doubly good. ;)

Right now, you're in pain because you haven't acted on the feelings that you want to act on. You have to learn to get past that, because you'll feel much better about trying and being rejected than you will otherwise. How you'll fight past your anxieties, I don't know, I was in an unusual circumstance so I can't help you there. But you have to find out how if you really want to achieve what you think you want to achieve.

My few friends just brush it off like it's some joke, telling me that "all you have to do is just talk to them." Try as I might to make them understand, they just can't or won't see that that is the problem - I can't just do it. That's like telling a person who's just had his arm cut off with chainsaw to just stop screaming because, after all, all he has to do is "just do it."
One day, my girlfriend asked me to ring up a restaurant and book a table for us that evening, and for some reason I got really anxious and didn't want to do it. More than that, I convinced myself that I couldn't do it, and I pleaded with her that she do it. It sounds absurd when I think back to it, I don't know what it was about calling up a restaurant that scared me, I just didn't like the idea of talking to a stranger over the phone. Anyway, she refused to do it and told me that I had to learn, and when I saw that she was disappointed in me, I pulled out my phone and rang the number.

"Hello. Blah-blah restaurant, how may I help you?"
"Hi, I'd like to book a table for two for 7:30 this evening."
"Under what name?"
"TheGodBen."
"That's a table for two at 7:30. See you then."
"Okay, thank you."

I looked over to my girlfriend and she had a big smile on her face and told me that she was proud of me, to which I told her not to be as it wasn't a big deal, it was only a simple thing. And it was just a simple thing, something that I had absolutely no reason to be scared about, but I had myself convinced that I couldn't do it. But as soon as it was done, I realised that there was nothing scary about it, it was a routine thing and I had been incredibly silly before. Since then I've rang several restaurants, shops, offices, and I even worked in a call centre speaking to a dozen strangers every day.


You can talk to women, it's not hard, you just need to find the right motivator to make you do it. I don't know what that is for you, but once you find whatever it is you will be able to do it. And when you do it once, you will be able to do it again, and again, until you eventually succeed. :)

Pills don't give you confidence.
No, but alcohol does! :p

Many of the men I've talked to concerning virginity have said that the first time is something that's best just gotten out of the way.
Or, as in my "friend's" (:shifty:) case, the first four times. But you know what they say, fifth time's the charm. :techman:
 
Some of you are probably already asking yourselves "why would you say you hate yourself"? Well, the answer to that is quite simple - I'm 31 years old and have the social skills of an extremely shy, socially awkward 11-year-old. I have a truly deep-seated fear of interacting with women, and even more especially with women I find attractive. I have absolutely no idea why I have this problem, but it's been there ever since I was in the 6th grade.

I've never had a girlfriend and have only been on three dates in my entire life (none of which went further than the first date and none of which went all that well to start with - mostly because of my anxiety). So that means that yes I am, in fact, a 31-year-old virgin, and that's putting it mildly. I'm a 31-year-old who's never even kissed a woman. Hell, I've never even done as much as hold hands with a woman. This is despite the fact that having a relationship is the one and only thing I actually care about in this world.

That last sentence is the key to your problem, as many others have suggested. It might be worth it for you in the long run to take a step back and not focus on relationships or being in one so much. Focus on your hobbies. Focus on your job/career. Start a new hobby. Spend time with your family, but positively. (more on this later)

I'm really depressed about this, so much so that I have trouble getting out of bed most mornings. I've even considered suicide over it, though thankfully have never tried to carry it out.

I've been seeing a psychologist for over three and a half years due to this depression/anxiety and it hasn't really helped beyond lessening some of the pain momentarily (just by having someone to talk to about it). Though I can't fault the doctor for that failure, as she's really tried her best to help me. We've tried talk therapy, cognitive-behavioral therapy, systematic desensitization therapy, and a whole host of other therapies. We've even tried various types of medications (I can't remember all the different types I've been on, but I know I've tried Prozac, Paxil, Effexor, Celexa, and Buspirone). However, I'm still unable to even make eye contact with women I'm interested in - I'm that anxious.

Dude, if you're considering suicide, there's nothing anyone here is going to be able to do beyond telling you "Don't do it." Does your psychiatrist know you've had these thoughts? If so, what have they said? I hope you know, no matter how painful all this must be, that suicide is never the solution and only creates even more pain and misery for the people around you and for those who love you. As awful as things might be, what I'm trying to tell you is that there is ALWAYS an alternative to offing yourself.

Secondly, the sleep issues are a real bitch to beat. I've got the same problem sometimes, and have been having a hell of a time this past two weeks trying to re-regulate my sleep schedule. But if you're depressed and your sleep schedule is shot, it's a good bet it's fucking around with your emotional well being too. Google Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs and address the ones you can control - eat right, sleep right, etc. and I guarantee things won't seem as dire.

3) The drugs are helpful, yes. But they are not a solution to every problem.

Add to that the fact that I honestly don't think my family or friends really care about the situation and that further fuels the depression.

My few friends just brush it off like it's some joke, telling me that "all you have to do is just talk to them." Try as I might to make them understand, they just can't or won't see that that is the problem - I can't just do it. That's like telling a person who's just had his arm cut off with chainsaw to just stop screaming because, after all, all he has to do is "just do it."

My parents, sister, and brother-in-law, whenever I bring up the subject with them, act completely indifferent about it and often seem like it's nothing more than a burden to them to have to deal with it. Pretty much the only "advice" I get from any of them is when they give me an order - not a suggestion, not a request, an ORDER - to get on Eharmony, like that is going to do anything. I tried Eharmony once, along with other online dating services, and guess what - nothing came from it. Then again, when you're too afraid to talk to women, even from behind the safety of a computer screen, Eharmony isn't going to get you much is it? In fact, they recently ordered me to try Eharmony again. So, I did. I've been on there for about a month now. Guess what - nothing has come from it because I'm too much of a coward to communicate with anybody.

With regard to your family and friends, forgive me, but it sounds more and more as I read through this post of yours that you want or expect them to solve this problem for you. They can't do that. Add to this, that while they do love you and care for you and want you to be happy, if all you ever do is lament your situation to them, after a time it will grate and become something they simply will not want to discuss. Obviously I'm spitballing with that one, but it does happen.

As for dating sites -- I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy action you've got going with regard to the dating sites. OF COURSE you'll fail if you don't try communicating. You need to look at it less as "relationship shopping" (because that's precisely what it is -- shopping) and more as just asking someone out for coffee. Going with the shopping analogy, you aren't going to find what you want on the first try. And it's ok to go to different stores .Shop around. Make it a point to ask out ten girls a day. I would assume people on these dating sites are there for the same reason - to find a date. Just send out an email introducing yourself and suggesting you get together for coffee and conversation. Throw in a light compliment while you're at it. It's probably likely a lot of these will go ignored, but you only really need one "yes" in the end, right? Worry about this step first. The rest can be dealt with as it develops.

And I'm not going to go into detail about my sister and brother-in-law, other than to say that it even further depresses that my baby sister beat me to the alter before I've even held hands with a woman. When they got married last October I had to be in the wedding party, since I was the only sibling of the bride. I even had to say the prayer at the start of the reception. I can tell you that that wasn't easy. It still amazes me that I was able to keep a straight face that entire day, since I was literally crying for myself inside.

This is going to sound super-douche-y, but I think this thread needs a healthy dose of perspective. Personally, while I sympathize with your overall situation, I think this is pretty goddamn selfish of you. It's your sister's big day and all you're thinking about is yourself? I understand how all-encompassing the depression can be, and again I do sympathize with how hard it is to not feel it being rubbed in your face. But you need to man up and face some of the littler issues head on. Being in your sister's wedding party would have been a great opportunity to meet plenty of eligible bachelorettes in the wedding party. And if your sister and brother-in-law are aware of your issues they might even have been willing to help in this arena.

Every day I get up and put on a mask for the world to see that says "everything's fine" because I'm too afraid to let my true feeling show. I've been thinking about posting this stuff here on TrekBBS for quite a while now. I think the only reasons I finally decided to do it were because I've been encouraged to do so by others, I simply had to get this off my chest somehow, and, thanks to my Admiral Shran handle, I can keep my anonymity.

So, if you've read this far, thanks for reading and what do think?

I'm glad you did post about it. When someone has a problem, it's never good to keep it bottled up. And if discussing the problem is the first step toward making it easier to deal with it, I'm all for it. It does sound like you have your work cut out for you, and I do think you can overcome a lot of these problems but it's not going to be easy and as JonathonWally suggested, it would be good to start from the ground up. Work on yourself, and then find a wingman (perhaps your brother-in-law would be a good choice, now that he is off the market) to help you on the playing field.
 
Well, Admiral Shran, all the good advice has been given at this point-- but so has the bad, so I'll just emphasize the important points. ;) First, the most important thing is to not beat yourself up over this. You suffer from a serious anxiety problem; that's a medical issue and it's not your fault any more than nearsightedness, diabetes or appendicitis would be. Second, if your therapist has been unable to help you for four years, you should seriously consider trying somebody else (and I find it interesting that you say your therapist is a woman-- do you have a hard time talking to her?). Third, you really need to stop focusing on being in a relationship. Hard, I know; when you're thirsty, all you think about is water. But you really need to have a life of your own before you can have a life with somebody else. Develop your hobbies and interests; join clubs or do charity work; write, draw, learn a musical instrument; do things that make you happy. Fourth, we're back to the First-- allow yourself to be happy. You have to be good to yourself. Treat yourself as well as you'd treat a friend who came to you for help with this problem.
 
Don't ever say that to someone. Seriously, that's like psych 101. Because now, not only do they still feel like shit, now they also feel guilty for feeling like shit.

Different people have different problems and different hurdles and people approach and react to them in different ways.

It's not like Shran is consulting a bunch of board-certified psychiatrists here. :vulcan: He's feeling bad about himself, and so he vents and seeks feedback from his peers. But it's true, though. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy. Feeling ashamed, timid, or anxious isn't going to allow that person to really enjoy life. If he's depressed and/or anxious, then it's important that he seek professional help.


As I posted, "Stop feeling like that" isn't very helpful.

And honestly, when one feels so awful about themselves, who really cares if there are others worse off? Always being mindful of the status of others negates one's own emtions, positive AND negative. "Don't feel bad about your lot, others have it worse off" can equate to "Don't feel good about your lot, others have it better (or worse, I guess) off."

Though you are definitely correct about the seeking professional help when things go too far. And while the BBS is great for many things, it does not give diagnoses.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. I know what it's like to go through depression, and to me it was the shittiest and lowest point in my life. My point, and I should've been more clear, is that people are only as miserable as they make themselves to be. Fine, telling him about other people's miseries shouldn't cheer him up, but I wasn't being disrespectful to him in any way, as that other poster made it sound like.

As you've probably noted, the root of Shran's unhappiness is his inability to be in a relationship with a woman or interact with women. First, I'd like to say while being in a relationship is a fulfilling and satisfying experience, it should not be the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's like saying, "The only way I can be really happy is to have lots and lots and lots of money, which I don't have." That's setting oneself up for disappointment. A little change in attitude or perspective, which may take time to develop, can make a significant difference.

Second, if one wants something so bad, he/she can succeed at it if that person works hard to achieve the goal. "Geez, I really want to get an MBA." Okay, what's stopping you? Sometimes we're too afraid to step out of our comfort zones. "I think I'm just going to hang around the house and watch the Dr Who marathon" instead of saying, "I want to get out tonight, go to the museum, have fun by myself, and not even worry about flirting with an attractive girl. My main focus is to observe different types of people in a social setting, but if a woman starts a conversation with me, I won't be afraid to talk to her."
 
Hey there is alot of men and women in the same sitation as you.
Being shy around women and knowing what to say is hard
But you might meet that person when you least expect it..
Dont beat yuor self over this.
There is more to life than doing that

Just because you have not kissed a girl doent mean that you are not worth anythnig these days we have to be careful who we meet.
Stay positive and look at other things in life and l bet you have other things going for you.
Try going to clubs and pubs with reinds and like your freinds say try making a conversation and see where it takes you
Dont worry about what is going around you and stop worrying about trying to kiss it will come and other things later.
You should keep us informed when you go out and hopefully some members here can give you more tips on how to handle yourself.
 
Shran my friend, everybody here has already said more or less everything I was going to, so let me just add my voice to those who said that having a relationship should NOT be the main focus of your life. I did that for many years, and it's very overrated. You want to know what shook me out of it? Star Trek. Yeah, that's right. Star Trek. I was VIOLENTLY depressed over not having a girlfriend, and one day, when I was watching the TNG first season episode "Coming of Age". Picard told Wesley:

"You have to measure your successes aand your failures within. Not by what I or anybody else might think."

When I heard that, strangely, alot of the shit I was going through suddenly became easier to take, and alot of my stress disappeared. I'm not saying it'll be that way for you, but it's still good advice.

And I don't like hearing that you are contemplating suicide. That is NEVER the answer no matter how bad things get. Look at me, I have cerebral palsy, that has screwed up my body so badly that I have to depend on my girlfriend's paycheck to survive. She doesn't have to help me, but she does. The woman is a saint, and has one hell of a better chance of seeing heaven when she dies than I ever will.

Hang in there buddy. You'll survive. We all do. The secret is to never give up, no matter how much shit life dumps on you.
 
get a job in retail

customer service has really helped me
my classmates used to ask me 'why don't you talk?' I was so introverted
now I enjoy conversations with strangers . . . even if I am trying to sell televisions and laptops :P
 
Hey Admiral Shran, just by posting an honest account of your difficulties, you've shown a lot more courage than most people I know. That should tell you something about yourself, and you should feel good about it.

backstept mentioned working in retail, and they've got a point: it's easy to talk to strangers, many times, if you have a script (not a real script, but you get the point--the conversation has a purpose).

So maybe putting yourself into situations where it's a little more structured might help. That takes some of the burden off of you and might make it less daunting. There have been a lot of other helpful suggestions upthread, too.
 
I'm 31 years old and have the social skills of an extremely shy, socially awkward 11-year-old.

I've never had a girlfriend
So that means that yes I am, in fact, a 31-year-old virgin, and that's putting it mildly. I'm a 31-year-old who's never even kissed a woman. Hell, I've never even done as much as hold hands with a woman.
I'm 27, but otherwise these parts describe me perfectly. My point is, I can relate.

and have only been on three dates in my entire life (none of which went further than the first date and none of which went all that well to start with - mostly because of my anxiety).
This may not help, but that's three more than I've ever had.




This is despite the fact that having a relationship is the one and only thing I actually care about in this world.
I admit I can't say the same, but I understand what you are saying.

I'm really depressed about this, so much so that I have trouble getting out of bed most mornings.
I have trouble getting out of bed sometimes too, due to depression.

I've even considered suicide over it, though thankfully have never tried to carry it out.
Been down that road myself.

I've been seeing a psychologist for over three and a half years due to this depression/anxiety and it hasn't really helped beyond lessening some of the pain momentarily (just by having someone to talk to about it). Though I can't fault the doctor for that failure, as she's really tried her best to help me. We've tried talk therapy, cognitive-behavioral therapy, systematic desensitization therapy, and a whole host of other therapies. We've even tried various types of medications (I can't remember all the different types I've been on, but I know I've tried Prozac, Paxil, Effexor, Celexa, and Buspirone). However, I'm still unable to even make eye contact with women I'm interested in - I'm that anxious.
I'm sorry to hear that your treatment isn't working out as well as you'd hoped. I've been on a myriad of meds myself over the past 15 years now for my depression, bi-polar, anxiety and OCD. It doesn't make everything go away, unfortunately.

Add to that the fact that I honestly don't think my family or friends really care about the situation and that further fuels the depression.
I'm really sorry to hear that. Support from friends and family is so very important in managing these things.

My few friends just brush it off like it's some joke, telling me that "all you have to do is just talk to them." Try as I might to make them understand, they just can't or won't see that that is the problem - I can't just do it.
Do you think it's possible that it's more like it's very difficult, rather than impossible?

That's like telling a person who's just had his arm cut off with chainsaw to just stop screaming because, after all, all he has to do is "just do it."

Not necessarily. While for you it may not be as simple as "just do it", it doesn't have to be impossible.


My parents, sister, and brother-in-law, whenever I bring up the subject with them, act completely indifferent about it and often seem like it's nothing more than a burden to them to have to deal with it. Pretty much the only "advice" I get from any of them is when they give me an order - not a suggestion, not a request, an ORDER - to get on Eharmony, like that is going to do anything. I tried Eharmony once, along with other online dating services, and guess what - nothing came from it. Then again, when you're too afraid to talk to women, even from behind the safety of a computer screen, Eharmony isn't going to get you much is it? In fact, they recently ordered me to try Eharmony again. So, I did. I've been on there for about a month now. Guess what - nothing has come from it because I'm too much of a coward to communicate with anybody.
Yeah, your family just doesn't get it.

Every day I get up and put on a mask for the world to see that says "everything's fine" because I'm too afraid to let my true feeling show.
I put such a mask quite often myself.

I've been thinking about posting this stuff here on TrekBBS for quite a while now. I think the only reasons I finally decided to do it were because I've been encouraged to do so by others, I simply had to get this off my chest somehow, and, thanks to my Admiral Shran handle, I can keep my anonymity.
You did the right thing. It's always good to talk about it, even if it's on a message board.

So, if you've read this far, thanks for reading and what do think?
I'm really glad you decided to share your situation. There's no reason you need to be alone.

As far as the title, is it really yourself that you hate, or your condition and how it's affecting your life? How you think about yourself shouldn't be defined by your condition and what it does to you, but rather how you deal with it. If you give up, and just let it control your life, then yeah hating yourself would make sense. But if you are trying your best to manage it and live a "normal" life despite it, then you have nothing to hate yourself for. I mean, if you had cancer you wouldn't hate yourself for how the cancer affects your body and your life, would you?

Feel free to send me a PM or email if you ever want to talk privately. I don't want you to feel like you're alone in this.
 
I suppose you could say I'm in a similar boat to Admiral Shran except maybe not quite as dramatic.

I haven't had much self confidence since I was about 12. It was around that time I stopped having any close friends as well.

These days I find it hard to find a single thing about myself that I can honestly say I'm pleased with. I used to think I was smart, then I ended up being a law school drop out. I've never really been...pretty, but at least I wasn't fat up until I was 13, then I had a thyroid problem and things have just gone down hill from there. My Mom's always sliding in little comments about 'if you were skinnier'. I have life experience and things I can talk about...but it almost sounds condescending to ever talk about it because I sound like I'm boasting and not many can relate to my experiences (suppose I did that one to myself). I have...interests, they're just not really 'social' activities.

It's funny, until I was about 14 or so my BEST FRIEND was a boy, we just found separate spheres in high school. I'm not awkward about talking with guys. Most of the people I was 'friends' with in high school were guys. In classes I'm taking now at community college I'm just as willing to work with male class mates on projects as female, it just so happens I work more often with women. The problem comes in talking outside of class about non class related things.

I just...I dunno, I have an ideal of a type of guy in my head that I'd like to date or marry. While I realize the physical aspects that I'm really looking for are probably unreasonable (generally I find really tall men, like over 6'0", attractive at least on TV) and I like sort of baby faced men (Jared Padelecki, Jensen Ackles, Josh Hartnett). I like a guy with a sense of humor, but is also kind of geeky (wouldn't think I was weird for liking Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings), likes movies, books (my Dad's side of the family are all readers so it's just sort of...something in my life that's a requirement), likes traveling.

I've been saving myself in a way for this "Mr. Right" and it's such a fallacy to even believe one guy will be all this. I've never been kissed, hardly dated all because no guy has ever had all that I expected. Not that any guy has ever shown interest. I'm a classmate, a coworker, someone to talk to, I know how to hang out with guys on that level..kinda, sorta but I've never really felt like I've ever been seen as a romantic interest.

I just...I don't know. I'm the youngest in my family, 6 years younger than my middle sister and 9 than my oldest. I've always been kind of a loner, kind of isolated as the youngest. I feel as if my family doesn't even trust my decisions, they see me as selfish, they think my interests are frivolous. If my family feels that way about me...why should I feel any different? Why should any guy see me as different?

Sometimes I think breaking away from their influence would be best, it's not as if I have friends or many connections here anyway. Other times it's just scary as heck to think about actually breaking free. I tried in London and it worked...sorta, but there was always a deadline. I knew I would be flying back home. I'd like to try being on my own and away without a deadline. Is that weird?
 
Shran:

Well, for one: As many have said before. You need to decide that you are going to be happy with or without a woman or anyone in your life. There is a lot to be happy and grateful for in this life.

1. Stay Positive 24/7 (See The Silver Lining in Each Cloud)

Smile more and stay upbeat at all times. Have a more positive outlook on life. Don't take things so seriously all the time. Life is a dance. Sometimes you lead. Sometimes you follow. Enjoy it. Get pleasure out of the simple things like watching nature or looking at a beautiful sunset. Make a list of things (not involving women) that would make you happy. I am not an expert, but you shouldn't need pills and a therapist to make a commitment to your state of being. I would recommend reading the book "Awaken the Giant Within" to begin with. It is a great book for changing your emotional state about how you feel about yourself. I would also recommend getting the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People", too.

2. Find a Constructive Passion (Shoot for a Dream or Goal)

The more passionate and happy you get about something you enjoy doing (whether it be drawing, boat building, bird watching, or whatever), the more a woman will be attracted to you because you are not focused on them for your be all end all for your happiness. Decide right now that there is something you could be doing (right now) that could get you fired up and passionate about life and then do it. Why may you ask will they be attracted to you if you are passionate about something constructive? Well, it is because they will look at you as if they were in your shoes. In other words, if you make the decision to be geniunely happy, passionate, confident without a woman, you will attract that which you couldn't before.

3. Dress for success: (Appearances Are Important)

Did you ever hear the saying that the clothes make the man? Have you ever went to a wedding and put on a tuxedo before? How did that make you feel? I bet you felt pretty good. Now, this doesn't mean you should go around in a business suit or tuxedo to pick up girls. This just means that you should wear a nice dress shirt most of the time, a pair of good fitting pants with no holes in them, polished shoes, a good shower and deodorant, and your hair done right (with some hair product). (Note: Ask your hair stylist for advice if you are not sure what to do with your hair).

4. Eye Contact: (The fun little eye contact game)

Have you ever heard that the eyes are the windows to the soul? Well, believe it or not if you want to get a woman to notice you, stare into their eyes. The longer you do it, the more it turns them on. Unless of course they find you repulsive or unattractive (in which case they will think you are some crazy stalker or something). That's why having a personal passion (besides being passionate about her) is so important if they see that you like to look deeply into their eyes. I would also recommend in getting a couple of books on how to attract women thru body language, too.

5. Pheromone Cologne: (That Added Extra Edge)

Yes it works. I have personally used Pheromone Cologne myself and it works, guys. It gives you that little added edge against the competition (not to mention a little extra confidence, too). Don't believe me. Check out this Yahoo Answers page here...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080414230905AAtnBTE


6. Double Your Dating: (Be Better Than Average!)

I remember applying some of these principles within this series a long time ago. Pretty solid stuff here. I would recommend checking them out as soon as you are on the road to following your own personal passion.

http://www.doubleyourdating.com/


7. Work out and eat right: (Strong Body = Strong Mind)

Studies have shown that people who work out and eat right are more likely to stay upbeat and positive. And if your a person who doesn't like to work out like myself, then get some really great music on some headphones and do at least 15 minutes of excersize that will get you sweating and your blood pumping. I usually work out with weights and mix it up with a little cardio. I also try and do different types of work outs each week to keep it fresh and exciting, too. I would recommend the book called "Eight Minutes in the morning" to get you started. Remember, a strong body is a strong mind.

http://www.amazon.com/Minutes-Morning-Simple-Pounds-Guaranteed/dp/0060505389


8. Say to Yourself Everyday..."It's Possible"!!! (Forever Keep the Faith!)

Over the years I have listened to dozens of motivational speakers. My favorite to this day is Les Brown. Whether or not he fires you up is besides the point. However, what he instructs about your life can change you in ways that you can't even imagine, though. (Note: If you are not wild about Les Brown, I would Google for a list of popular motivational speakers and then watch them on YouTube). The more ammo you have to beat the depression and the negativity for each day... the better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgEU9roiUy0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23PgYSpISNE
 
I read in your Profile, that you love History. Why not build up on that (if you not already do of course)? Go to adult education seminaries about history, visit museums, travel (if financial possible) to places, where certain histroric events took place, see if you find groups who may do museums/ traveling together, go to the libabry or book-shops look at and read around in all the history books there etc.
And while you are at it, if a lady comes along you can train a bit with just giving her a short smile and then go on with whatever you do, in a course or so you would probably meet both lady and man, but you all are there for one thing: history....so you already have a commen topic to converse about. Just don´t look at them as possible partners, look at them as people, who share a common interest with you.

TerokNor
 
Wow! I thought I'd get a response, but nothing this big. Thanks to everyone who commented.

Just some things I want to respond to....

I guess what this all boils down to is, focus on building yourself up first. Nurture some interests, get some friends (both male and female), stop thinking negatively about yourself all the time. As you get to know more people, relationships will follow naturally from that. You'll find women with common interests and maybe hit it off with someone. But first you need the confidence to crawl out of your shell and actually interact with people. Don't tolerate negative thoughts toward yourself. Just don't. When you catch yourself thinking something negative, put a stop to it and replace it with something that's good about you. There is being accountable to yourself--which is a good thing--and then there's self-hatred, and I think you're very much in the latter box at the moment.

I've been trying that very thing. As I said, my therapist has been using cognitive-behavorial therapy. I give myself positive self-talk dozens and dozens of times every day. Yet, when the moment of truth comes every day and I face a situation of talking to an attractive woman, I freeze.

The other thing is, you know that relationships aren't all happy, right? Sure you might see bright shining faces, and weddings, and babies, but you don't see the rest of it. You don't see the fights and the doubts and the hurt. It's also possible to be happy without a relationship.

Finally, if your anxiety is so crippling, have you tried talking to women online? Not as a means of pursuing a relationship, but just to chat? To get some practice. I don't know what exactly happens or what you feel when you talk to a woman, but it might be a place to at least start.

I know that relationships aren't all wine and roses. I'm perfectly ready to face all the drama, hassle, and fighting because it's got to be better than all the heartache I'm feeling now.

And, I have tried talking to women online just to chat. However, even then I was too afraid to say anything. I had to have my best friend sitting right next to me literally whispering words into my ear to write. In fact, that's how I got two of the three dates I've been on - my friend helped set them up by telling me exactly what to say.

I don't remember you having problems replying to female posters here on the BBS. Do you check a poster's gender before responding to their posts? So what's different? They still have a vagina, breasts, and all the nice girly bits. The difference is that here you are not concerned about their gender, but their opinions.

There is a difference, IMO. The fact that I can keep my real-world identity a secret through my Admiral Shran handle allows me to have more confidence. If people here knew who I was in real life (such as by me posting pictures of myself in the MOAR PICS thread) I wouldn't say the things I say.

Someone saying "have confidence in yourself" or "don't be so anxious" is equivalent to saying "You won't have this problem if you don't have this problem." Well, duh.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on that matter. :techman:

To this I would add, girls don't bite

I've been bitten quite few times. Of the three dates I've been on, two ended with the woman flat out telling me she wasn't interested (the third was a blind date I was set up on, and this time I wasn't interested - though I hope I let her down easier than those other two let me down).

Also, I've asked out a total of twelve women in my life. Of the nine I didn't get a date from, there wasn't a single one that didn't respond with a resounding "NO!"

I think you'd be a good friend.
*blush*

Do you have problem talking with the women you are not attracted to, too?

Yes, but to a far, far lesser extent. In fact, after my sister's wedding last October I went to an after-reception party. There were men and women present. I could converse with all the women, because I wasn't attracted to any of them, and with the men. However, there was one woman there who I found moderately attractive and I couldn't open my mouth to save my life around her.

i used to be nervous around girls, until i started treating them like boys. (well, considering my peers in high school, i treated the girls nicer) mind you, taking a class in an all-girls school when i went to an all-boys school also helped. when you're one of five boys in a class of thirty, you soon learn to communicate with females.

I've tried that route. Back when I was an undergraduate most of the students in my department were female. So, I ended up being in a lot of classes where women outnumbered men. In fact, I was in more than one class where the only men were me and the professor. Still, I just sat there and didn't say anything or contribute to the class discussions because I was so anxious around the women.

Almost hate to say it, but Shazam!'s suggestion just might be one option.

I have actually been giving that very idea some serious consideration.

I'm guessing that you have no difficulty interacting with female co-workers, store checkers, waitresses, etc.
Actually no, I can't even interact with my attractive female co-workers - people I see virtually every day. As for store clerks and waitresses - same thing. I'll always try to approach them, simply to either pay for my purchases or order a meal, but I still can't do that. I often end up going to another clerk or waitress. And if I have no choice but to deal with attractive ones.... well, there have been many times when I've just retreated from the store/restuarant without saying anything.

There came a time in my life where I had to choose between acting on my feelings for someone and risk making a fool of myself, or lose that opportunity through inaction.

Something very similar happened to me once. I once had a female roommate when I was an undergraduate (it was me, her, and another guy). One night we were all out at a dance club and I had to choose between asking her to dance or doing nothing. I picked the second option. Long story short = while she continued to be my roommate, she ended up marrying the very next guy to ask her to dance. So that's why I said, in your B5 review thread, that I have a lot of sympathy for Lennier.

Pills don't give you confidence.
No, but alcohol does! :p
Ah, if only I had a higher tolerance. But three drinks puts me under the table.

With regard to your family and friends, forgive me, but it sounds more and more as I read through this post of yours that you want or expect them to solve this problem for you.

No, all I ever wanted from them was a shoulder to cry on and maybe a little encouragement (something along the lines of "Good looking women will be interested in you.") I never wanted them to solve my problems for me, just a little sympathy.

This is going to sound super-douche-y, but I think this thread needs a healthy dose of perspective. Personally, while I sympathize with your overall situation, I think this is pretty goddamn selfish of you. It's your sister's big day and all you're thinking about is yourself?
That's why I did all I could to remain calm and straight-faced that day - I didn't want to ruin it for everyone else. Thankfully I was successful in that regard. However, that ended up adding to the pain.

(and I find it interesting that you say your therapist is a woman-- do you have a hard time talking to her?).

No. But then again, I don't in any way, shape, or form find her attractive.
 
No, all I ever wanted from them was a shoulder to cry on and maybe a little encouragement (something along the lines of "Good looking women will be interested in you.") I never wanted them to solve my problems for me, just a little sympathy.

I guess the question you really need to ask yourself here is this: Has it come to the point that this is the only thing you ever talk to them about? Is it possible they have offered you all the sympathy they can muster and have just run out? Has it reached the point that you're just a broken record? Because if it is, it may just be that your friends and family are sick of hearing about it (and perhaps rightfully so), and/or perhaps it's simply that they don't feel that enabling this behavior is helpful to you. Again, I sympathize -- I know several people who have suffered through these same issues and I know it can be a colossal pain in the balls. I just think that it would benefit you to take a step back and really examine what's going on around you.

To be blunt: your friends and family aren't being paid to listen to you talk about your problems; your therapist is. I'm sure your family and friends care about you and the things that matter to you, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they just feel ill-equipped to help you with this situation in any meaningful, practical or productive way -- which is probably why you're seeing the therapist to begin with. And there's nothing wrong with that.

This is going to sound super-douche-y, but I think this thread needs a healthy dose of perspective. Personally, while I sympathize with your overall situation, I think this is pretty goddamn selfish of you. It's your sister's big day and all you're thinking about is yourself?
That's why I did all I could to remain calm and straight-faced that day - I didn't want to ruin it for everyone else. Thankfully I was successful in that regard. However, that ended up adding to the pain.

I realize you managed to pull yourself through. And yeah, you did good. But at the same time if being in your sister's wedding party brings you to tears because you're still single and lack experience, you've got bigger problems than simply being single.

It's a very fine line with depression, between addressing your own needs and issues while at the same time not crossing that line and infringing on other people. This is the kind of thing that I think falls in to the latter category. I fully admit I might be the only person to think so, and I also recognize weddings are very emotionally charged events but I also think pretty bad to be so self-involved with yourself that you were unable to enjoy yourself at your own sister's wedding.
 
Wow! I thought I'd get a response, but nothing this big. Thanks to everyone who commented.

Just some things I want to respond to....

I guess what this all boils down to is, focus on building yourself up first. Nurture some interests, get some friends (both male and female), stop thinking negatively about yourself all the time. As you get to know more people, relationships will follow naturally from that. You'll find women with common interests and maybe hit it off with someone. But first you need the confidence to crawl out of your shell and actually interact with people. Don't tolerate negative thoughts toward yourself. Just don't. When you catch yourself thinking something negative, put a stop to it and replace it with something that's good about you. There is being accountable to yourself--which is a good thing--and then there's self-hatred, and I think you're very much in the latter box at the moment.

I've been trying that very thing. As I said, my therapist has been using cognitive-behavorial therapy. I give myself positive self-talk dozens and dozens of times every day. Yet, when the moment of truth comes every day and I face a situation of talking to an attractive woman, I freeze.

Well, doesn't that tell you something? The self-talk you're doing isn't working! Why isn't it working? Who knows? Maybe it's the wrong kind of self-talk. Maybe you have a lousy therapist. Maybe you are sabotaging yourself subconsciously.

Exactly what do you feel when you "freeze"? Abject terror? Something to keep in mind is that everyone is anxious about something, and a moment comes when you are faced with something unfamiliar and frightening. Some people choke, and others swallow their fear and go through with it anyway. Freezing up is a matter of will. You have these things piled up inside that are holding you down and keeping you from living your life the way you want. You are the only one who can tell those things to "fuck off" and do what you want anyway.

As others have said, pills and therapy can only do so much. At the end of the day, you are the one that has to take control of your own life and decide what kind of life it's going to be. I think you might be expecting some kind of "eureka!" moment to happen where you are filled with the Power of Self-Confidence and can suddenly talk to women, but it just doesn't work that way. It is something you build up, by yourself, over time. Given that even constant self-talk isn't helping, it sounds like you don't trust yourself at all--you can't take your internal monologue seriously. There is just no magic fix for that, and I'm sure you know it or you'd have used it by now.

I used to be horribly shy and socially anxious, especially around women. No one was able to fix that for me. I just forced myself to get over it, and yeah, it took a while--years. But I am so much better for it now.
 
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