How big was the Enterprise?
- Thread starter Admiral Jean-Luc Picard
- Start date
It's not a matter of dated. It's that TOS feels completely different from TMP or any other Trek production that followed TOS. With Roddenberry deliberately looking to distance himself from TOS and focus on a more evolved humanity the productions took on a different tone.Oh, come on. It's not that outdated.
Correct. It's just the people who change size randomly; Giant Clone Spock wasn't actually different, he was just out of sync with everyone else.
TOS is different from Trek produced a generation later? Say it ain't so!
I know, it was a joke.
Based on the design of things like the shuttle and hand-phaser, I have a feeling they would’ve designed SNW to look more like TOS if they hadn’t inherited things designed under DSC’s more extreme style-revision.
It gets too damned convoluted.
In TMP we were expected to believe this was the same ship as the TOS E barely three years after the end of TOS' 5yr. mission. It wasn't just the ship, but everything else in-universe that looked a lot more detailed and updated. It would have been easier to swallow if TMP had been set ten years later in sync with the actual real world time that had passed. But with the TMP refit we could rationalize that it wasn't just new parts and tech grafted onto the old ship but that it was a major refit/reconstruction. Note that the original idea for TMP was the E was to be an entirely new ship from the keel up, but it was decided (Roddenberry?) the ship would be a refit of the original.
I'll skip over all the continuity inconsistencies through the films and TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT. But particularly in ENT we see a universe that doesn't gel with TOS and particularly "The Cage." Yet the real whopper is the JJtrek films starting with ST09 where they're asserting it's still the Prime timeline and this is now what the TOS E actually looked like all along particularly in the Pike era. It's total bullshit. Why not just be honest and say it's a rebooted continuity totally separate from the original continuity? That said this seems to be the generally accepted take on the JJverse after all these years.
Now DiscoTrek comes along and they change everything again and insist this is what it's been all along. Fuck that. Just be honest and say you're rebooting it where you're cherry picking familiar names and references from what came before and doing your own thing--fine as it avoids pissing off a lot of original fans.
And now there's speculation/rumour they're considering "rebooting" TOS. What, again? From what I've seen DSC/SNW is a reboot of the TOS era so why not run with that? Hell, I still see ENT as a dishonest reboot of TOS.
For some of us you get to a point where it's too damn much, and not just regarding the ship. They're all over the map with this shit. So, as Lord Garth said, it's easier (and requiring a lot less mental gymnastics) to just accept TOS is its own thing and the rest is their own thing to do as they please. There are those of us who are going to ignore it anyway.
In TMP we were expected to believe this was the same ship as the TOS E barely three years after the end of TOS' 5yr. mission. It wasn't just the ship, but everything else in-universe that looked a lot more detailed and updated. It would have been easier to swallow if TMP had been set ten years later in sync with the actual real world time that had passed. But with the TMP refit we could rationalize that it wasn't just new parts and tech grafted onto the old ship but that it was a major refit/reconstruction. Note that the original idea for TMP was the E was to be an entirely new ship from the keel up, but it was decided (Roddenberry?) the ship would be a refit of the original.
I'll skip over all the continuity inconsistencies through the films and TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT. But particularly in ENT we see a universe that doesn't gel with TOS and particularly "The Cage." Yet the real whopper is the JJtrek films starting with ST09 where they're asserting it's still the Prime timeline and this is now what the TOS E actually looked like all along particularly in the Pike era. It's total bullshit. Why not just be honest and say it's a rebooted continuity totally separate from the original continuity? That said this seems to be the generally accepted take on the JJverse after all these years.
Now DiscoTrek comes along and they change everything again and insist this is what it's been all along. Fuck that. Just be honest and say you're rebooting it where you're cherry picking familiar names and references from what came before and doing your own thing--fine as it avoids pissing off a lot of original fans.
And now there's speculation/rumour they're considering "rebooting" TOS. What, again? From what I've seen DSC/SNW is a reboot of the TOS era so why not run with that? Hell, I still see ENT as a dishonest reboot of TOS.
For some of us you get to a point where it's too damn much, and not just regarding the ship. They're all over the map with this shit. So, as Lord Garth said, it's easier (and requiring a lot less mental gymnastics) to just accept TOS is its own thing and the rest is their own thing to do as they please. There are those of us who are going to ignore it anyway.
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The J.J. movies were never the Prime Timeline. That's why the events after Nero arrives in 2233 create something called the Kelvin Timeline. Ships and tech look radically different because 25 or more years of history have been irrevocably changed by Nero traveling back from Prime 2387.
Thank you. It was never the intent to say "This is TOS all along" by Abrams. It was always an alternate timeline.
TMP tried to paper over what was basically a reboot with Kirk behaving out of character and tie ENTERPRISE brand new save for the nonsensical idea of this was still Kirk's ship.
That's not what was argued back in the day. I remember those argu-...er, discussions.
They literally say in the film that it's an alternate universe.
The sticking point was that the USS Kelvin and all the pre-history is supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, as it pre-dates Nero's incursion.
Correct. I may have confused him earlier with the order in which I put things. I will effect repair:
The Prime continuity was created for the 2009 film as the origin point for that film's old Spock character. The Prime continuity took all pre-2009 live-action stuff and added TAS, novels, and comics. While typically understood to be the 'Original Universe' people watched for forty years, this is logically a new thing contrasted with the rules of the 1960s-2005 productions where only live-action material was canon, though it is also the "next closest continuer" to that 'Original Universe'.
The action of the 2009 film (and its follow-on films) occurs in the "Kelvin Timeline", ostensibly merely a time-travel offshoot of Prime, but with a variety of notable differences.
While the Prime continuity and Kelvin continuities are ostensibly separate, Fuller's pitch for Discovery was a "reimagine" that initially didn't really have a specific continuity home. At some point, however, it was decided to market it as being part of the Prime continuity, but by the time that happened the mixture and assorted new reimagined things had already gotten started . . . hence windowed bridges and hairless large-headed Klingons. In later filmed materials they also explicitly include the destruction of Romulus from the Kelvin continuity film.
Certain unpopular changes have been retconned back toward 'Original Universe' specs, e.g. the Klingons. Discovery featured them suddenly getting hair and shrunken craniums, then later productions returned entirely to the traditional Klingon make-up style in use since the TMP era. Nevertheless, "Prime" does still allow for any number of Goldsman's "opportunity to retcon" maneuvers or similar things like the John Eaves report of being told to keep things "25% different" (for whatever reason) or Tamara Deverell's "cheat" to fit within "the world of our Discovery", et cetera.
More accurately, the origin point of the Kelvin is the "Prime" timeline.
The opening scenes of the 1st JJ ST did take place in the "prime timeline" supposedly.
All that Kelvin stuff at the beginning was before the incursion of Nero and the subsequent creation of the alternate timeline, and yet it looked nothing like anything that fit in the "TOS" timeline/universe.
All that Kelvin stuff at the beginning was before the incursion of Nero and the subsequent creation of the alternate timeline, and yet it looked nothing like anything that fit in the "TOS" timeline/universe.
Sure, this is a perfectly workable bit of head canon that reconciles all the continuity issues and I have no problem with it.
But why stop there? All the early instalment weirdness of TOS can be retconned into similar alternate timelines: laughing Spock with mega brows, James R. Kirk (IIRC Peter David got there first), Space Seed in the 22nd Century, etc.
Embrace the multiverse!
Simon Pegg attempted to retcon this during the Beyond press junket with some bafflegab about the changes to the timeline flowing backward as well as forward.
But in fairness, the idea that Nero's incursion created the Kelvin universe is just speculation on Spock's part in the first film. Much easier if it's a pre-existing alt-timeline that Nero's 'black hole' lead him and Prime Spock into.
This is at least as much "bafflegab" as what Simon Pegg proposed.
some of the new rows are too closely packed even for the "upscale", and some are just in places that we already knew there were decks, just not windows, therefore they are just having double stacked squarish windows in some spaces instead of tall slit windows like were added to the SNW E saucer rim :sip:
Indeed! They both amount to the same thing: the Kelvin that we saw not necessarily existing in the TOS timeline.
Screwing with the Kirk we know prior to his own temporal screwings also screws with all of his temporal screwings, not to mention the temporal screwing of those who came after.
