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Spoilers Hawkeye -Discussion Thread

Yeah, I'm kind of shocked they actually do the full Marvel Studios logo at the beginning of every episode, most of the other studios seem to do shorter logos for their TV & streaming shows.
I think this is the last we will be seeing Clint Barton so I have my doubts on a season 2. But we of course will be seeing most of the characters again IMO. Though I still think we might get a Budapest "What If" story at some point on the cartoon.
I doubt they'll kill Clint, but I wouldn't be surprised if he retires and officially hands over the Hawkeye name to Kate, who then carries the rest of the series by herself. I would love to see them follow the comics and have her move to LA. They aren't as bad as the comics, but the movies and shows are getting to be pretty NYC centric, so it would be nice to see LA get some more attention now that Tony Stark is dead. And even the Iron Man movies didn't really do much with their LA setting, so focusing on the city more in Hawkeye could be fun.
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Is this the first we've actually gotten a single episode trailer for a Disney+ show? Most of their trailers are for groups of episodes, not just one.
 
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Yeah, I'm kind of shocked they actually do the full Marvel Studios logo at the beginning of every episode, most of the other studios seem to do shorter logos for their TV & streaming shows.

Pretty sure all the Disney+ MCU shows have done that. What surprises me is that they don't have a "Skip Intro" button for that part. I think What If...? did have a skip button for the main titles (which I did want to see because they showed the distinct cast for each episode) but not for the opening logo sequence.


I doubt they'll kill Clint, but I wouldn't be surprised if he retires and officially hands over the Hawkeye name to Kate, who then carries the rest of the series by herself.

While I do have a sentimental hope that he gets home for Christmas, I also feel that the right thing for him to do would be to surrender himself to the law and confess to the murders he committed as Ronin. I'm kind of tired of screen superheroes who go through murderous phases but then get let off the hook because they resolve not to do it again. That's not how atoning for murder works. (The Arrowverse is particularly bad about this.)
 
Clint was only killing criminals as Ronin, wasn't he? I'm a little fuzzy on the details but it never seemed to be that different from his work at SHIELD, aside from not having a boss telling him who to go after.
 
Clint was only killing criminals as Ronin, wasn't he? I'm a little fuzzy on the details but it never seemed to be that different from his work at SHIELD,.
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Yeah, I'm kind of shocked they actually do the full Marvel Studios logo at the beginning of every episode, most of the other studios seem to do shorter logos for their TV & streaming shows.

I doubt they'll kill Clint, but I wouldn't be surprised if he retires and officially hands over the Hawkeye name to Kate, who then carries the rest of the series by herself. I would love to see them follow the comics and have her move to LA. They aren't as bad as the comics, but the movies and shows are getting to be pretty NYC centric, so it would be nice to see LA get some more attention now that Tony Stark is dead. And even the Iron Man movies didn't really do much with their LA setting, so focusing on the city more in Hawkeye could be fun.

Is this the first we've actually gotten a single episode trailer for a Disney+ show? Most of their trailers are for groups of episodes, not just one.

I would go to another place rather than LA. To many times it feels like the only cities in America that exist are NY and LA. The Avengers should go to Hawaii. Lovely backdrop for some action scenes. Maybe Ant Man even finds a statue and gets them a Tiki God curse. Thor almost drowns while surfing.
 
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Wasn’t the Inhuman show set on Hawaii?
What about a different country altogether? I don’t think Australia has been done in the MCU yet.
 
That would also work. I kind of like the idea of Japan or even the new Asgard on earth country which is something that I think would be a fun setting to explore.
 
I would go to another place rather than LA. To many times it feels like the only cities in America that exist are NY and LA. The Avengers should go to Hawaii. Lovely backdrop for some action scenes. Maybe Ant Man even finds a statue and gets them a Tiki God curse. Thor almost drowns while surfing.

No. Thor loses his macho and then has to get it back by jumping a Kraken while on water skis.
 
Clint was only killing criminals as Ronin, wasn't he? I'm a little fuzzy on the details but it never seemed to be that different from his work at SHIELD, aside from not having a boss telling him who to go after.

"Only killing criminals?" What a truly obscene and horrifying thing to say. Criminals are still human beings, and the law protects everyone's rights. Private citizens do not have the right to go around murdering people that they believe to be engaged in criminal acts. The punishment of criminals is for a court of law to decide.

I mean, come on, how many Marvel heroes have been criminals? Does Maya deserve to die? Does Scott Lang or his crew? Daisy Johnson? Luke Cage? Heck, half the Avengers were branded criminals after Civil War.
 
I am seeing the advantage to the shorter seasons on Disney plus as opposed to the longer seasons on Netflix. This most recent episode has me wanting to revisit Daredevil, and I haven't in a while, but I remember the Netflix seasons tending to feel overly long and padded out, and I find myself wishing that they were more concise like the Disney plus series have been.

Boy, people surely forgot the standard 22-26 episode seasons that were the norm up until the 90s/early 00s until streaming/Netlix took off and made the standard season 10-12 episodes long.

I'm torn on the issue - old school shows used these to more fully explore the main and some secondary characters which in the end made them so popular. However such long seasons also often had many filler episodes or less than well written ones, that could have been cut. I think 10-12 episodes per season is the sweet spot - it trims unnecessary plot lines and stories but leaves enough room for the characters to breathe.

Marvel's shows have the advantage that we already know most of these characters but i still feel they are a little bit too short episode wise ( even counting in the fact that they have massive credit scenes and all this, that together almost take up a good 6-8 minutes of episode time, reducing the actual episode often enough to around 40 minutes). I'd like it more if they would increase to at least 8 episodes so they don't feel so rushed and frantic at times but i'm still happy with what we get.
 
I'm torn on the issue - old school shows used these to more fully explore the main and some secondary characters which in the end made them so popular. However such long seasons also often had many filler episodes or less than well written ones, that could have been cut. I think 10-12 episodes per season is the sweet spot - it trims unnecessary plot lines and stories but leaves enough room for the characters to breathe.

I'm not sympathetic to the idea of "filler episodes." It implies that only stories that advance the season arc are meaningful and standalones aren't worthwhile. But I don't buy that. It used to be that all episodes were standalones. The value of telling a story should be in the story itself; whatever external things it connects to should be of secondary importance. The chain isn't strong if the links aren't strong. Heck, look at The X-Files. Many people feel that its self-contained standalone episodes were its best ones, and the ones that advanced the big mythology arc were often a pointless mess.

Or rather... on second thought, I agree that there is such a thing as a filler episode -- a standalone that's just by-the-numbers, routine, forgettable stuff, rather than a really good standalone that has a terrific concept or explores the characters and themes in a memorable way. For instance, you could say that Deep Space Nine: "Dramatis Personae" is a filler episode while "Duet" is not. The problem is that people today tend to equate all standalones with filler episodes, unfairly judging the entire category by its weakest examples. (Analogously to how people today automatically assume that any story centering on a guest star is a "Mary Sue" story, even though the term was coined to refer specifically to badly done examples of that perfectly valid kind of story. This very episode of Hawkeye proved that a guest star-centric story can be fantastic.)

In general, I like the idea of having a mix of self-contained stories that let us get to know the characters and the world and arc stories that advance a larger narrative. I think if you do build a season primarily around a single story arc, then shorter is better, maybe 8-10 episodes. But not every show needs to be structured that way. For a more episodic series where the larger arc is secondary to the individual tales, I think 13 or even 20-22 episodes is fine.
 
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Don’t forget the the recap and the overly long Marvel Studios logo.
WandaVision end credits were a little over 8 minutes. The opening was 1:30 or more depending on how much recap was necessary. The actual episode in between averaged around 35 minutes, so I spent around 20% of the total in the kitchen brewing coffee and making a sandwich.
 
You know it would be fun if the Avengers were based out Roswell New Mexico. Have then takeover the old buildings that used to hold the aliens. Or Somewhere in Colorado or Montana because those places would lend themselves to big beautiful visuals. Just watch Yellowstone to see how beautiful Montana can be.
 
I'm not sympathetic to the idea of "filler episodes." It implies that only stories that advance the season arc are meaningful and standalones aren't worthwhile. But I don't buy that. It used to be that all episodes were standalones. The value of telling a story should be in the story itself; whatever external things it connects to should be of secondary importance. The chain isn't strong if the links aren't strong. Heck, look at The X-Files. Many people feel that its self-contained standalone episodes were its best ones, and the ones that advanced the big mythology arc were often a pointless mess.

Or rather... on second thought, I agree that there is such a thing as a filler episode -- a standalone that's just by-the-numbers, routine, forgettable stuff, rather than a really good standalone that has a terrific concept or explores the characters and themes in a memorable way. For instance, you could say that Deep Space Nine: "Dramatis Personae" is a filler episode while "Duet" is not. The problem is that people today tend to equate all standalones with filler episodes, unfairly judging the entire category by its weakest examples. (Analogously to how people today automatically assume that any story centering on a guest star is a "Mary Sue" story, even though the term was coined to refer specifically to badly done examples of that perfectly valid kind of story. This very episode of Hawkeye proved that a guest star-centric story can be fantastic.)

In general, I like the idea of having a mix of self-contained stories that let us get to know the characters and the world and arc stories that advance a larger narrative. I think if you do build a season primarily around a single story arc, then shorter is better, maybe 8-10 episodes. But not every show needs to be structured that way. For a more episodic series where the larger arc is secondary to the individual tales, I think 13 or even 20-22 episodes is fine.

Filler episodes in my eyes are ones that are completely forgettable, i.e. after a while you barely remember the plot because it is just meh. On the other side there are episodes like In the Pale Moonlight ( DS9) that are still talked about today. Then there are bottleneck episodes - cut together with scenes from previous episodes to save costs, usually if the season went overboard with the budget or they need to save money for a big mid or season finale, where they go all in. These are the worst examples of what a 26 episode full season had ( Star Trek had some of these but the worst culprit was Stargate, that had such episodes on a regular basis).
 
Filler episodes in my eyes are ones that are completely forgettable, i.e. after a while you barely remember the plot because it is just meh. On the other side there are episodes like In the Pale Moonlight ( DS9) that are still talked about today.

Yes, as I said, the term should be referred to the most run-of-the-mill standalones, rather than the way people tend to use it today, as any episode that doesn't advance an ongoing arc.

I will grant that 26-episode seasons are too long, because there isn't time to make every episode as good as it can be, and sometimes you have to settle for a mediocre episode just to meet the schedule. So maybe something like 13-20 episodes is better for having a good mix of episodic and arc installments.


Then there are bottleneck episodes - cut together with scenes from previous episodes to save costs, usually if the season went overboard with the budget or they need to save money for a big mid or season finale, where they go all in. These are the worst examples of what a 26 episode full season had ( Star Trek had some of these but the worst culprit was Stargate, that had such episodes on a regular basis).

Those are called clip shows. You're thinking of bottle episodes, which are episodes filmed only on standing sets to save money (which can be superb, e.g. TNG's "The Drumhead" or DS9's "Duet").

Many series, like Stargate SG-1, have annual clip shows built into their budgets from the start. It used to be that they were always pretty routine, disposable stuff, like TNG's "Shades of Gray," but starting in the '90s, shows that had to do clip episodes occasionally put more of an effort into making them creative and worthwhile. SG-1 was pretty good at this, with clip episodes like "Disclosure" or "Inauguration" that contributed meaningfully to the story arc. Hercules and Xena had enormous fun with their clip shows, often framing them with the cast playing new characters in the present day -- the best being "Yes, Virginia, There Is a Hercules," in which the show's cast played comedy caricatures of the show's own writing staff, with the conceit being that the actual Hercules was pretending to be an actor named Kevin Sorbo playing Hercules. (A conceit that really does not hold up in retrospect.) The '88 syndicated Superboy had some really lame clip shows, but in season 4 it did "Who is Superboy?," which is one of the best episodes of the entire series despite being a clip show, because instead of just using the plot as an excuse to set up clips, it used the clips as a vehicle for doing its deepest dive ever into Clark Kent & Lana Lang's relationship. Andromeda's "The Unconquerable Man" is one of the best clip shows ever, since it incorporated the flashback clips into an alternate timeline that cast the entire previous series in a new light.

Really, if you think about it, TOS: "The Menagerie" was a clip show. Its story was built entirely around clips from a earlier episode in order to get the show out of a budget/schedule crunch. It just happened to be an unaired episode. So even back then, clip shows could occasionally be worthwhile, though that was more exceptional then. (I tend to think "Shades of Gray" was so bad that it lit a fire under TV producers to try to make better clip shows from then on, or just to avoid them altogether.)

I always found it weird that Stargate SG-1's sister production, Showtime's Outer Limits, had annual clip shows built into its budget like most Canadian-filmed shows of that era. After all, it was an anthology. It's weird to take a number of separate, self-contained stories and try to knit them into a shared universe. Although in some seasons, they set up deliberate continuity links between episodes (e.g. the same robotics company being involved in all of them) to plan ahead for the clip episodes.

These days, the only US production I can think of that still does annual clip shows is Power Rangers, which tends to do them as its annual Halloween and Christmas episodes. Which is weird, because the entire franchise is a clip show, built around recycling action footage from Japan's Super Sentai. (Which has its own tradition of annual clip shows, hard to avoid since it tends to have around 48-50 episodes per year.)
 
Wasn’t the Inhuman show set on Hawaii?
What about a different country altogether? I don’t think Australia has been done in the MCU yet.
North Korea is more of a laugh than Australia now, I wouldn't bother
 
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