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Have any of the novels ever just made you mad? (

Candlelight vigils on Earth while waiting for the end... please. :rolleyes:

Well, no offense, what would you have them do? Anyone who could leave in private ships or other craft already had (Bacco says millions have fled and that Paris and other major cities are ghost towns), Starfleet's off fighting hard and/or half-heartedly flicking torpedoes at the Borg in futile spiritless "meh" mode (depending on who you ask :p), so there's no one coming to evacuate who's left. What can the people of Earth - and anywhere else in the Borg's path - actually do at this point? They have no defenses capable of successfully damaging the Borg (the collective has already easily reduced dozens of other worlds to slag). What do you want them to do? Throw stones at orbiting Borg cubes? Panic? When there's no realistic chance of doing anything productive, getting worked up into aggressive mode like that is just going to lead to riots and chaos. It would be pointless. Instead, people were spending their presumed final moments with friends and family and community. With a sense of dignity. What about that do you object to? Plenty of people would prefer to be frank in their almost-certain final moments and prepare themselves or celebrate their lives for what they were. Not everyone thinks that clawing for survival to the bitter end in the face of futility is a good way to face death. And as for the "they'd given up!" argument- they had simply accepted that this was likely the end - and with good reason. They hadn't simply said "ooh, a crisis. Well, think well of me, survivors!", then swooned and lay down in the mud. This wasn't just a crisis like any other, this was apocalypse.
 
Candlelight vigils on Earth while waiting for the end... please. :rolleyes:

Well, no offense, what would you have them do? Anyone who could leave in private ships or other craft already had (Bacco says millions have fled and that Paris and other major cities are ghost towns), Starfleet's off fighting hard and/or half-heartedly flicking torpedoes at the Borg in futile spiritless "meh" mode (depending on who you ask :p), so there's no one coming to evacuate who's left. What can the people of Earth - and anywhere else in the Borg's path - actually do at this point?

Didn't you hear? They should have been finding some bows and arrows and shooting them at the sky. Anything else means they've abandoned humanism. :rofl:
 
Candlelight vigils on Earth while waiting for the end... please. :rolleyes:

Well, no offense, what would you have them do? Anyone who could leave in private ships or other craft already had (Bacco says millions have fled and that Paris and other major cities are ghost towns), Starfleet's off fighting hard and/or half-heartedly flicking torpedoes at the Borg in futile spiritless "meh" mode (depending on who you ask :p), so there's no one coming to evacuate who's left. What can the people of Earth - and anywhere else in the Borg's path - actually do at this point? They have no defenses capable of successfully damaging the Borg (the collective has already easily reduced dozens of other worlds to slag). What do you want them to do? Throw stones at orbiting Borg cubes? Panic? When there's no realistic chance of doing anything productive, getting worked up into aggressive mode like that is just going to lead to riots and chaos. It would be pointless. Instead, people were spending their presumed final moments with friends and family and community. With a sense of dignity. What about that do you object to? Plenty of people would prefer to be frank in their almost-certain final moments and prepare themselves or celebrate their lives for what they were. Not everyone thinks that clawing for survival to the bitter end in the face of futility is a good way to face death. And as for the "they'd given up!" argument- they had simply accepted that this was likely the end - and with good reason. They hadn't simply said "ooh, a crisis. Well, think well of me, survivors!", then swooned and lay down in the mud. This wasn't just a crisis like any other, this was apocalypse.

You know I always think back to the conversation Guinan has with Riker in the Best of Both Worlds II...

GUINAN: You know, Picard and I used to talk every now and again, when one of us needed to. I guess I'm just used to having the Captain's ear.
(She sits in Picard's chair)
RIKER: What's on your mind?
GUINAN: I've heard a lot of people talking down in Ten Forward. They expect to be dead in the next day or so. They trust you. They like you. But they don't believe anyone can save them.
RIKER: I'm not sure anyone can.
GUINAN: When a man is convinced he's going to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen. The only one who can turn this around is you.
RIKER: I'll do the best I can.

The Borg had just destroyed 39 starships on their way to Earth. The Enterprise didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of saving Earth. Neither did Kirk's Enterprise have any chance of saving Earth from V'Ger. Spock said they couldn't destroy the Doomsday Machine. NuSpock said they alone couldn't stop Nero. So on and so forth...

Point being is this is the first time we show people just giving up in Trek including one of its centerpiece characters, Jean-Luc Picard. It just doesn't set very well with me. YMMV.
 
Candlelight vigils on Earth while waiting for the end... please. :rolleyes:

Well, no offense, what would you have them do? Anyone who could leave in private ships or other craft already had (Bacco says millions have fled and that Paris and other major cities are ghost towns), Starfleet's off fighting hard and/or half-heartedly flicking torpedoes at the Borg in futile spiritless "meh" mode (depending on who you ask :p), so there's no one coming to evacuate who's left. What can the people of Earth - and anywhere else in the Borg's path - actually do at this point?

Didn't you hear? They should have been finding some bows and arrows and shooting them at the sky. Anything else means they've abandoned humanism. :rofl:

Don't give a shit about humanism. I think this directly contradicts humans general need to survive and live another day. :barf:
 
Point being is this is the first time we show people just giving up in Trek including one of its centerpiece characters, Jean-Luc Picard. It just doesn't set very well with me. YMMV.

David Mack said in a podcast interview with Keith R.A. DeCandido that one of the themes Destiny was about was the fact that sometimes, in life, you are absolutely helpless. That sometimes, in life, there is simply nothing you can do to change something. That sometimes, in life, you have to accept that you have no power over a situation, that the situation has power over you, and that you have to move on from there.

Tell me, if you're in New Orleans in August 2005, and you're not able to get out, are you just "giving up" if you accept that you have no way to fight an incoming hurricane?

Is it really "giving up" to, when faced with seemingly inevitable death, choose to die with dignity?

I don't think that's giving up, myself. I don't think that's giving in, or surrendering, or becoming suicidal, or any of the five thousands nonsense things some people have used because they weren't satisfied that there was enough technobabble about bullshit weapons systems.

I think that's refusing to die in terror. I think that's dying on your feet rather than your knees. I think that's choosing to die in a manner consistent with the humanist belief in human dignity.
 
1) I'll never understand this opposition to using the Thalaron weapon. If the story needed it not to work, then it wouldn't work (same thing drives me crazy about I, Borg)... it's that simple. But for our heroes to not even make an attempt to save their civilization is weak.

Again, the key is recognizing that stories are driven by character, not just plots and events. The thalaron controversy was a means to explore Picard's character, to show how far gone he was into darkness that he was willing to embrace the evil that had taken Data's life and use it in a futile, childish attempt to strike back at the bad people who'd hurt him. That plotline wasn't about the weapon or the technology or the military logistics. Those were just background, means to the real end. That plotline was about two human beings, Jean-Luc Picard and Geordi La Forge, and their emotions and relationships. It was about Picard almost giving in to the ugliness his Borg abusers had left in him and Geordi pulling him back from the brink.

And the problem is - this controversy makes NO sense - morally and practically.
Meaning, by our perspective, using thalaron weapons in self defense against genocidal invaders IS moral.
AND, also, from the 24th century perspective, the actions our heroes undertook in 'Destiny' alone show using thalaron weapons against genocidal invaders is 'moral':
"The thalaron weapon was immoral because it would kill borg drones? Well, starfleet did their defeatist best to do just that throughout the books.
Or was it immoral because it could destroy all life on a planet? Standard foton torpedos can do the same thing equally well - indeed, an atmosphere assures nearly 100% antimatter annihilation (meaning foton torpedoes are quite effective when it comes to planetary destruction)."

Also - there's nothing 'futile', 'childish' or 'ugly' in using a weapon that has excellent chances of working against the borg - as per 7 of 9 - in order to stop or delay the collective from killing TRILLIONS.

2) It's silly to have a moral problem with one type of weapon of mass destruction (thalaron radiation) but have no problem using another (transphasic torpedoes) weapon from the future which they also have laws against (Temporal Prime Directive), which cracked Borg cubes like walnuts. It shows an inconsistent application of Federation "morals".'
Not at all, because a transphasic torpedo isn't a weapon of mass destruction per se. It's a very targeted kind of tactical weapon, not more destructive per se than an ordinary torpedo, just better at penetrating Borg defenses, harder for them to adapt to. It's a surgical weapon, one specifically invented to counteract the Borg's ability to adapt. There's just no comparison to something like a thalaron weapon, which is like a neutron bomb on a planetary scale, something that can wipe out all life on an entire world while leaving the structures and technology intact. Just imagine if that technology got out and into the hands of conquering powers. It's absurdly naive to argue that the Federation would be safer in a world where thalaron technology became widely known.
A 'standard' foton torpedo IS a weapon of mass destruction. It's has a matter-antimatter warhead, ideal for extinguishing all life on a planet in minutes. It's just as bad as a thalaron weapon.

Also - "Just imagine if that technology got out and into the hands of conquering powers.":wtf:
What 'conquering powers'? The only thing remaining after the borg are done with the alpha/beta quadrants will be ash clouds. Worrying about the external politics of ash clouds is ridiculous.
That's the absolute worst case scenario - far worse than thalaron weapon proliferation.
At that point, the federation should have prayed that it will survive to worry about thalaron proliferation.

She asserted her independence, took charge of her life, took action to discover the key to resolving a horrible crisis, and then persuaded the Caeliar to admit their mistakes and act to resolve them. It wasn't the Caeliar who saved the day, it was Erika Hernandez. An ordinary human captain who went through an unimaginable ordeal, managed to survive and adapt against all odds, almost lost her humanity in the process, but ultimately reclaimed it while becoming something greater, and thereby reached the most beneficial solution for all concerned. It doesn't get more humanistic than that.
Thematically and story-wise, Hernandez was a half-divine being, a 'Jesus' figure.
She may have been human hundreds of years ago - by the 24th century she was more than that, she was beyond human - and, at the end of the books, she achieved full divinity, she became a 'god of night', a caeliar.

Humans - the federation - played no significant role in their deliverance (beyond being a taxi service for Hernandez).
 
You know I always think back to the conversation Guinan has with Riker in the Best of Both Worlds II...

GUINAN: You know, Picard and I used to talk every now and again, when one of us needed to. I guess I'm just used to having the Captain's ear.
(She sits in Picard's chair)
RIKER: What's on your mind?
GUINAN: I've heard a lot of people talking down in Ten Forward. They expect to be dead in the next day or so. They trust you. They like you. But they don't believe anyone can save them.
RIKER: I'm not sure anyone can.
GUINAN: When a man is convinced he's going to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen. The only one who can turn this around is you.
RIKER: I'll do the best I can.

The Borg had just destroyed 39 starships on their way to Earth. The Enterprise didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of saving Earth. Neither did Kirk's Enterprise have any chance of saving Earth from V'Ger. Spock said they couldn't destroy the Doomsday Machine. NuSpock said they alone couldn't stop Nero. So on and so forth...

Point being is this is the first time we show people just giving up in Trek including one of its centerpiece characters, Jean-Luc Picard. It just doesn't set very well with me. YMMV.

I see your point, certainly, and Guinan is quite right when she cautions against giving up hope...but, like I said, this wasn't like any other crisis - this was the big one, the one that threatened everything. No safe haven, no regrouping later, no rebuilding. The entire Federation civilization (and all its neighbours) were in the process of going down under a wave of Borg cubes. I'd agree that for people to accept defeat as simply inevitable would, at almost any other point in Trek, be somewhat contrary to how I'd expect them to behave. But none of those crises ever approached the scale of this one. This one pushed everything to its breaking point - the characters, the Federation's sense of self, the way we readers relate to our Trek. Inevitable defeat wasn't so much a dangerous concept here, more a realistic concept (even if it was proven wrong in the end).

I loved "Destiny", as I'm sure you can all tell :lol:, but I agree entirely that if Trek were like that all the time, I'd be very disappointed. But it isn't. This was the darkest hour. There'll never be another Destiny. The Federation took quite a beating, in more ways than one (and while I disagree, it's obvious some readers felt it proved somewhat disappointing). But "Destiny" and its circumstances were extraordinary by definition. The novel trilogy was an experiment, I'd say - and a somewhat dangerous one, and for some readers an unsuccessful one. And I understand that. But I think part of the idea behind the story was to bring the Federation to that point where for once Guinan's wisdom above just doesn't work.

I don't see it as any sort of fundamental change to the Trek universe or how it's portrayed, because those elements that proved disappointing to some of the readers were specifically tied to these extraordinary circumstances, while those elements that support the view of the Federation we all know and love were ultimately triumphant, and continue to be prominant in the novels set afterward.

At least, again, that's how I see it. :)
 
Very thoughtful post...

Point being is this is the first time we show people just giving up in Trek including one of its centerpiece characters, Jean-Luc Picard. It just doesn't set very well with me. YMMV.

David Mack said in a podcast interview with Keith R.A. DeCandido that one of the themes Destiny was about was the fact that sometimes, in life, you are absolutely helpless. That sometimes, in life, there is simply nothing you can do to change something. That sometimes, in life, you have to accept that you have no power over a situation, that the situation has power over you, and that you have to move on from there.

But that's not why I read Star Trek books. To me Star Trek is entertainment. I don't need to watch the feature character break down when his cause is lost. Those very scenes that featured Picard pretty much turned me off to Trek books. I went from buying every book published to buying only the occasional TOS and Voyager books in the blink of an eye. Once again YMMV.

Tell me, if you're in New Orleans in August 2005, and you're not able to get out, are you just "giving up" if you accept that you have no way to fight an incoming hurricane?

Depends. Are you lying down in the street waiting for the flood waters to carry you away or are you up on a roof trying to stay afloat until (hopefully) help arrives.

Is it really "giving up" to, when faced with seemingly inevitable death, choose to die with dignity?

I don't think that's giving up, myself. I don't think that's giving in, or surrendering, or becoming suicidal, or any of the five thousands nonsense things some people have used because they weren't satisfied that there was enough technobabble about bullshit weapons systems.

I think that's refusing to die in terror. I think that's dying on your feet rather than your knees. I think that's choosing to die in a manner consistent with the humanist belief in human dignity.

Being prepared to fight doesn't mean you die in terror. We know that throughout Trek that the Borg have coveted Earth. Which means their plans for it could have been different than other Federation worlds.

Just sayin'. :cool:
 
I loved "Destiny", as I'm sure you can all tell

I loved it too, up until about the final hundred pages where Picard and Earth give up. Loved the story about Hernandez and the Caeliar and the Columbia survivors 4000 years in the past.

A poor ending kills a story more than a poor beginning. When I think of Destiny now... all I can think of is the ending.
 
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And the problem is - this controversy makes NO sense - morally and practically.
Meaning, by our perspective, using thalaron weapons in self defense against genocidal invaders IS moral.
AND, also, from the 24th century perspective, the actions our heroes undertook in 'Destiny' alone show using thalaron weapons against genocidal invaders is 'moral'

Welll, that is the point! Jean-Luc Picard simply doesn't share your opinion about this. Since when does every decision have to make sense?

ProtoAvatar said:
And the small minority (as opposed to most of starfleet, of the federation) that did NOT give up (Dax, etc) succeded in actually winning, in overcoming an 'unstoppable' situation, like so many times in previous trek.
So after all there actually is humanism in Destiny, because there were people who didn't give up?
 
I agree, Destiny's build up was so immense only to be a let down. Besides, I have kids, I don't have the luxury of just giving up. If an unstoppable force was set out to threaten my family, I will stand by and let it happen because all other attempts have failed. If I fall, at least I can say that I did everything that I could. If I am on a ledge with someone trying to push me off, I would fight dirty because its my life. I don't want to die and if throwing sand in someones face let me live then its worth it. If that Thalaron weapon saved just one planet, then I think thats worth it. The Enterprise crew had now problems blasting Borg cubes with thousand of drones from the other engagements, I don't see why it would be a problem later when the odds of complete annihilation are greater.

Actually, I would say that Voyager and Titan didn't concede to defeat until Voyager was a floating hulk and Titan was sabotaged by the Caeliar, but even then Riker still fought on.

Besides, Humanism means dick with a gun pointed to your head.
 
How can you be any less safe? So the question later in my posts is still unanswered: It's better to be annihilated than dealing with the ramifications of your actions?

That's a false way of framing the question, on two levels. One, if thalaron tech had gotten out, the Federation might've been annihilated later anyway. Two, you're ignoring the fact that THEY ALREADY HAD ANOTHER PLAN AT THAT POINT -- A PLAN THAT WAS, IN FACT, SUCCESSFUL. It's just that Picard didn't want to try that plan because he was too afraid of letting the Borg gain access to Caeliar tech. So it's a fundamental error to call it a choice between annihilation and moral compromise. Although, since you've had these facts pointed out to you dozens of times in the past and you just keep spouting the same false allegations, maybe "error" isn't the right word.


Don't give a shit about humanism.

Then why in the world are you reading Star Trek novels????
 
How can you be any less safe? So the question later in my posts is still unanswered: It's better to be annihilated than dealing with the ramifications of your actions?

That's a false way of framing the question, on two levels. One, if thalaron tech had gotten out, the Federation might've been annihilated later anyway. Two, you're ignoring the fact that THEY ALREADY HAD ANOTHER PLAN AT THAT POINT -- A PLAN THAT WAS, IN FACT, SUCCESSFUL. It's just that Picard didn't want to try that plan because he was too afraid of letting the Borg gain access to Caeliar tech. So it's a fundamental error to call it a choice between annihilation and moral compromise. Although, since you've had these facts pointed out to you dozens of times in the past and you just keep spouting the same false allegations, maybe "error" isn't the right word.

If I'm not mistaken the Thalaron tech was already available to the Romulan Star Empire and possibly the Imperial Romulan Senate. So that cat was already out of the bag.

What exactly was the plan again? Hope the Caeliar save the Federation. And, of course, it always hurts to have a back-up plan. Doesn't it? Just because you keep saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it right. Who made you the arbiter of right and wrong? :rolleyes:


Don't give a shit about humanism.

Then why in the world are you reading Star Trek novels????

Don't worry. Curing myself of that bad habit. Great way to keep and lure in readers Mr. Bennett.
 
And the problem is - this controversy makes NO sense - morally and practically.
Meaning, by our perspective, using thalaron weapons in self defense against genocidal invaders IS moral.
AND, also, from the 24th century perspective, the actions our heroes undertook in 'Destiny' alone show using thalaron weapons against genocidal invaders is 'moral'

Welll, that is the point! Jean-Luc Picard simply doesn't share your opinion about this. Since when does every decision have to make sense?

Since on these decisions hangs the life of BILLIONS.

ProtoAvatar said:
And the small minority (as opposed to most of starfleet, of the federation) that did NOT give up (Dax, etc) succeded in actually winning, in overcoming an 'unstoppable' situation, like so many times in previous trek.
So after all there actually is humanism in Destiny, because there were people who didn't give up?

Those exceptiones are drowned in the sea of defeatism; the overall tone of the trilogy is of failure on every level and death - and 5 minutes long fireworks at the end or some callous jokes after this change nothing.
 
And the problem is - this controversy makes NO sense - morally and practically.
Meaning, by our perspective, using thalaron weapons in self defense against genocidal invaders IS moral.
AND, also, from the 24th century perspective, the actions our heroes undertook in 'Destiny' alone show using thalaron weapons against genocidal invaders is 'moral'

Welll, that is the point! Jean-Luc Picard simply doesn't share your opinion about this. Since when does every decision have to make sense?

Since on these decisions hangs the life of BILLIONS.

Decisions made by human beings don't make more or less sense because of their importance.

ProtoAvatar said:
Those exceptiones are drowned in the sea of defeatism; the overall tone of the trilogy is of failure on every level and death - and 5 minutes long fireworks at the end or some callous jokes after this change nothing.
Good thing it ain't canon, eh? ;)
 
Welll, that is the point! Jean-Luc Picard simply doesn't share your opinion about this. Since when does every decision have to make sense?

Since on these decisions hangs the life of BILLIONS.

Decisions made by human beings don't make more or less sense because of their importance.

That's true; however, humans are held to higher standards of excellence when so much is at stake.

ProtoAvatar said:
Those exceptiones are drowned in the sea of defeatism; the overall tone of the trilogy is of failure on every level and death - and 5 minutes long fireworks at the end or some callous jokes after this change nothing.
Good thing it ain't canon, eh? ;)
It would be interesting to see the fan reaction were 'Destiny' canon (and filmed). It would certainly spark unending arguments:p.
 
But that's not why I read Star Trek books. To me Star Trek is entertainment. I don't need to watch the feature character break down when his cause is lost. Those very scenes that featured Picard pretty much turned me off to Trek books. I went from buying every book published to buying only the occasional TOS and Voyager books in the blink of an eye. Once again YMMV.

Star Trek is about exploring the human condition. Sometimes, to see the brightest aspect of that, you have to push it to the darkest place it's ever been or ever will be, in order to bring it to the bright places. The producers of DS9 had a saying about the Federation utopia that I think applies here - 'In order to reach utopia, they have to go through hell.' Over the last few years, the Federation has become less of a utopia from our perspective, with things like the dark and gritty Dominion War, the Tezwa affair, and of course, Section 31 acting in the name of the Federation. Given that it's been implied that they are actually responsible for some of the less savory aspects we've seen the Federation and Starfleet engage in, it could even been said that the Federation was still aspiring to become a utopia.

Tell me, if you're in New Orleans in August 2005, and you're not able to get out, are you just "giving up" if you accept that you have no way to fight an incoming hurricane?

Depends. Are you lying down in the street waiting for the flood waters to carry you away or are you up on a roof trying to stay afloat until (hopefully) help arrives.

How could they proverbially stay afloat in this situation? Earth's population is, what, nine billion? Realistically, maybe one percent at most of those nine billion have access to a space vessel that could offer them proptection or speed to get away. Any genuine evacuation effort would take months to evacuate the planet. They barely had hours. And the Borg are engaging in indiscriminate slaughter this time. Remember what they do to Vulcan and Andor, they don't even bother with invading the planets themselves, they just blast them from orbit. What could they do other than accept that death from above is coming?

Is it really "giving up" to, when faced with seemingly inevitable death, choose to die with dignity?

I don't think that's giving up, myself. I don't think that's giving in, or surrendering, or becoming suicidal, or any of the five thousands nonsense things some people have used because they weren't satisfied that there was enough technobabble about bullshit weapons systems.

I think that's refusing to die in terror. I think that's dying on your feet rather than your knees. I think that's choosing to die in a manner consistent with the humanist belief in human dignity.

Being prepared to fight doesn't mean you die in terror. We know that throughout Trek that the Borg have coveted Earth. Which means their plans for it could have been different than other Federation worlds.

Just sayin'. :cool:

The candlelight vigils didn't sound like dying in terror. More like accepting the fact and being ready. Hell, that's probably better than any of us would do in similar circumstances. The Borg didn't care about assimilating Earth anymore. They'd taken enough of a beating and said 'Screw it, we're just gonna kill you all and be done with it.'
 
You know it is kind of ironic that so many people are complaing about a Trek book trilogy actually staying true to Trek's themes and morals. I can guarantee you that if the Federation had actually done the things alot of the people didn't like Destiny say they should have, there would be a lot more people (myself included probably) that the books were completely going against what makes Trek Trek.

I also think it's worth pointing out that the Borg are not an army, they are a force of nature. They were a Tornado headed for a trailer park.

Also any weapons like the thalaron field (beam?) would be useless since you could probably only take out maybe one cube per weapon, and then after it's use the rest of the collective would adapt. Do you really think it would have been a good idea to use something like the thalaron weapon, and let the Borg adapt to it and become even more powerful? I sure as hell don't.
 
Well, to clarify, the idea behind the thalaron pulse was that it would wipe out the entire fleet amassing in the Azure Nebula all at once. But the flaw there is that it would only be a stopgap; the Borg would still have plenty more cubes where those came from, and as you say, those cubes would have adapted to the weapon. So in the long term, it would've been a futile gesture. And an unnecessary one, because they had a better alternative, the plan that actually worked.
 
Oh, ok. I was thinking it was a beam that you'd fire out of a phaser emitter or deflector dish.
 
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