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Have any of the novels ever just made you mad? (

IT WAS EASILY PREDICTABLE THAT, IF THE BORG SEND MORE THAN 100 CUBES, THE AZURE NEBULA WILL BE A MASSACRE.
Whoever made the battle plan for Azure Nebula was incompetent not to see this very obvious possibility. And it was negligence - or plain stupidity -, Kestrel.

Well, what's the other strategic option? You've got one bottleneck where you can surround the Borg and, ideally, choke off their advance. So the Borg might send more ships than you can stop. So what? Give up on the bottleneck? Now you've got a massive fleet, and you aren't going to use them to try to stop the Borg altogether, and instead will let the enemy pass into the Quadrant unchallenged because, hey, they'll probably do it anyway. Do you then use the fleet, or a few large pieces of it, to track down individual Borg ships or fleets once they break and try to take them down one by one, hoping the Borg run out of ships before the Allies run out of planets?

Strategic options?

Equip the Azure nebula fleet with thalaron weapons.
This would enable the fleet to stop a lot of cubes; all of them, perhaps - the borg would have been vulnerable to the first shots of this completely new weapon.
It could even buy the necessary time to retreat, if it proved insufficient to stop the entire borg armada.

Give the Azure nebula fleet transphasics.
This would enable the allied fleet to hold off far more cubes than it normally could have (has) - hundreds of them.
And, again, this could have allowed the Azure nebua fleet to actually retreat from the battlefield more or less intact even faced with 7000+ cubes.

And the list could go on - there are a number of tactics/strategies far better suited for battle against the borg than the uncreative/standard ones the Azure nebula fleet and, indeed, most of starfleet used throughout 'Destiny'.
In part, that's because the chances of success of such standard tactics are non-existent.
 
actually a better strategy would've been:

figure out how to collapse the subspace tunnels and then do so, thus stopping the tin-plated bastards coming through and make em come the long way.

preferably, collapsing the tunnel whilst a fuck-load of cubes are inside, destroying them in the process.
 
Equip the Azure nebula fleet with thalaron weapons.
This would enable the fleet to stop a lot of cubes; all of them, perhaps - the borg would have been vulnerable to the first shots of this completely new weapon.

By that logic, maybe you'd only stop the first cube, then give the Borg access to thalaron to use on the UFP.
 
^Exactly. It's well-known that any weapon only works against the Borg once, or at best a few times. Weapons are not the answer. At best they're a stopgap. That should be obvious after all these years of defeating the Borg over and over only to have them come back in greater force.
 
Yeppers. Also, YouTube has "Ties That Bind" posted--along with the "shower scene" individually. In that scene (and the very beginning of "Part 9"), we get some darn good examples of Nicole as "A Woman Scorned":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DrGEecG3qw
(Try not to be distracted by the fact that Miss de Boer's in a towel...focus on her expression. ;))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Ge5kPZOdQ&feature=related

:techman: yeah, thats the exact look i was talking about.

Mmm-hmm! If looks could kill...she'd have that blond bombshell psycho slowly burn from the inside out....

i cant believe i havent seen that movie before. EDIT: god damn. cant find it anywhere... voddler, netflix, even torrents sites... and they don't play it on Hallmark (US) anymore...

Well, as I'd said, YouTube has the whole thing, in 9 parts.

The second link is to the last part, of course.

It's actually quite good, if you're into "psychological drama" as the focus of the tale. (It's also highly underrated--a bunch of critics are saying, "Oh, it's SO predictable, and so on". Well...yeah. So? The intensity and thrills are in the characterization and interactions.)

well, you have a good point there. still, i having a real problem with that loose attitude in starfleet. not just in destiny but overall. they're serve on starships, not cruise liners. then again, i wouldn't have made a very good star trek captain...

Yeah...I remember discussing with Chris (back when he was talking to me :() about my concerns regarding some of the crew members in his book Ex Machina, and how they treated their superiors, such as Spock and Bones.

Ah, well. When "Starfleet is not (officially) a military orginization", I'd say discipline becomes a little...lax.
 
^Exactly. It's well-known that any weapon only works against the Borg once, or at best a few times. Weapons are not the answer. At best they're a stopgap. That should be obvious after all these years of defeating the Borg over and over only to have them come back in greater force.

Still...say what you will about the weapons...but all those times, they did buy Starfleet time to prepare for next time.

Our side can adapt, too. It just takes longer.

Sometimes...the best we can do at present is buy time.
 
By that logic, maybe you'd only stop the first cube, then give the Borg access to thalaron to use on the UFP.

But you run that risk anyway. If the Borg would have won they'd be coming back around and see what they could salvage in way of information and technology (it's only logical).

So Thalaron radiation, tri-lithium warheads, the Genesis Device, Transphasic torpedoes, Exo III android technology and so much more all would've had a chance of falling into Borg hands and being used against the Borgs next victims.
 
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Equip the Azure nebula fleet with thalaron weapons.
This would enable the fleet to stop a lot of cubes; all of them, perhaps - the borg would have been vulnerable to the first shots of this completely new weapon.

By that logic, maybe you'd only stop the first cube, then give the Borg access to thalaron to use on the UFP.

You could potentially stop the first few THOUSAND cubes at Azure nebula (perhaps all 7000+) - thalaron radiation encompases a radius the size of a planet around the opening of the tunnel, disabling ALL cubes in that radius (soon to be destroyed by conventional means); and that would be just one of, say, 100 ships discharging thalaron radiation simultaneously.
Plus, the borg are vulnerable to the first FEW shots of any novel weapon.

Also, the borg adapting their shelds to withstand thalaron radiation and the borg building a thalaron emitter are two VERY different things.
Just because the borg adapt to do the former does NOT mean the borg can do the latter.

PS - Therin of Andor, I do not have to prove that thalaron weaponry, transphasics used at Azure nebula, deflector discharges on different modulations, etc, etc will surely work against the borg.
All I have to prove is that these strategies/tactics have a FAR BETTER chance to work than the conventional tactics/strategies that the admirality/starfleet employed at Azure nebula and throughout the borg invasion.
And, considering that the standard tactics/strategies' chances of success are non-existent, that's not hard to do at all.
 
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Even though Picard's actions and the Bewitched ending bothered me, there was always something that bothered me more and that was Guinan's words of wisdom were ignored from the end of Q, Who?.

Q set a series of events into motion, bringing contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them. But for now, for right now, you're just raw material to them. Since they are aware of your existence...

It would have been more satisfying, for me as a reader, for the Federation to have found a way to co-exist with the Borg.
 
Even though Picard's actions and the Bewitched ending bothered me, there was always something that bothered me more and that was Guinan's words of wisdom were ignored from the end of Q, Who?.

Q set a series of events into motion, bringing contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them. But for now, for right now, you're just raw material to them. Since they are aware of your existence...

It would have been more satisfying, for me as a reader, for the Federation to have found a way to co-exist with the Borg.

Guinan was full of shit when she said that.

You can't co-exist with the Borg Collective. It is, by definition, an entity that can only exist -- indeed, that can only perpetuate itself -- by violating the rights of sentient beings by mind-raping them. It is not a normal culture that simply has needs and wants that can be met, and with whom peaceful relations can be established so long as neither side begins engaging in imperialism.

The Borg Collective cannot exist without imperialism. It is the ultimate embodiment of an imperial impulse -- because that is all there is to the Collective. There is no art, no commerce, no religion, no desire for peaceful co-existence, no philosophy, no education, no government, no faction, no literature, no society. The Borg Collective is nothing more than the imperial impulse given form. There's no co-existing with the Collective, because beyond its imperialism, there is nothing there to co-exist with.

Indeed, the very idea if antithetical to Star Trek's principles of humanism and liberty. The Federation coexists with the Klingon Empire in part because doing so is gradually causing the Empire to lose its own imperial designs on the galaxy, to loosen its grip on its conquered worlds and its desire to conquer new worlds. That's the Federation's general policy -- peacefully co-exist with belligerent nations in order to persuade them that equality is better than imperialism. But you can't do that with the Borg; there's nothing else to them. The Collective will never let go of its slaves.

That's why the ending of Destiny is far more in tune with Star Trek's principles; the Collective is dismantled, euthanized for the insane and suffering creature that it is, and its slaves are given instant liberty and equality. And all this without killing the slaves while they are still under the Collective's control, as the military solution would require.
 
The Borg Collective cannot exist without imperialism. It is the ultimate embodiment of an imperial impulse -- because that is all there is to the Collective. There is no art, no commerce, no religion, no desire for peaceful co-existence, no philosophy, no education, no government, no faction, no literature, no society. The Borg Collective is nothing more than the imperial impulse given form. There's no co-existing with the Collective, because beyond its imperialism, there is nothing there to co-exist with.
I agree with your statement, Sci - the borg were made to be evil, in the purest form that can actually exist.

Picard, though, in 'I, Hugh', did NOT agree:
He had no trouble treating the borg as a society, a civilization and he had no trouble NOT using a weapon that cound potentially dismantle the collective (perhaps liberating the individual drones).
In doing so, Picard allowed the borg to kill and assimilate trillions in the Delta quadrant and elsewhere - by the time of 'Destiny', this 'elsewhere' translated into ~63 BILLION dead in the alpha/beta quadrants, most of them federation citizens (people Picard was sworn to protect).
 
Therin of Andor, I do not have to prove that thalaron weaponry, transphasics used at Azure nebula, deflector discharges on different modulations, etc, etc will surely work against the borg.

I haven't asked you to prove anything. But it does seem you've proven you are a very hard person to please.

(people Picard was sworn to protect).

Hence his ongoing, deep pain.
 
Well, as I'd said, YouTube has the whole thing, in 9 parts.

The second link is to the last part, of course.

It's actually quite good, if you're into "psychological drama" as the focus of the tale. (It's also highly underrated--a bunch of critics are saying, "Oh, it's SO predictable, and so on". Well...yeah. So? The intensity and thrills are in the characterization and interactions.)

alright, thanks. my bad. i didnt do the math... 9 parts @ 10 mins equals a full movie. downloaded the clips and i'm rendering them into one clip as we speak. unlimited access to the school mainframe, yay!
 
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Therin of Andor, I do not have to prove that thalaron weaponry, transphasics used at Azure nebula, deflector discharges on different modulations, etc, etc will surely work against the borg.

I haven't asked you to prove anything.

Your previous post tended to contest the validity of my affirmations, implying they're not proven, hence:
"Therin of Andor, I do not have to prove that thalaron weaponry, transphasics used at Azure nebula, deflector discharges on different modulations, etc, etc will surely work against the borg.
All I have to prove is that these strategies/tactics have a FAR BETTER chance to work than the conventional tactics/strategies that the admirality/starfleet employed at Azure nebula and throughout the borg invasion.
And, considering that the standard tactics/strategies' chances of success are non-existent, that's not hard to do at all."

But it does seem you've proven you are a very hard person to please.
I gave reasons (some of them, anyway) why 'Destiny' was underwhelming as a star trek book, Therin.
My not being "pleased" with the trilogy is justified.

(people Picard was sworn to protect).
Hence his ongoing, deep pain.
Picard was being senseless in 'I, Hugh' of his own choice. He alone decided to allow the borg to continue genocidally exterminating species. Hence the blood of BILLIONS upon BILLIONS is staining his hands, too.
His complete failure in 'Destiny' - caused by him crying in the holodeck instead of trying and, why not, succeeding in actually finding a way out, as we saw him do numerous times in apparently hopeless situations - only compounded his mistake.

After all the death (BILLIONS, if not TRILLIONS of sentient beings) Picard was indirectly responsible for, do you really think 'his ongoing, deep pain' has any relevance?
Picard's pain is nothing by comparison to the death and suffering Picard allowed the borg to cause, either by his actions in 'I, High' or by his inaction in 'Destiny'.
 
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Your previous post tended to contest the validity of my affirmations, implying they're not proven

I haven't asked you to prove anything

I gave reasons (some of them, anyway) why 'Destiny' was underwhelming as a star trek book, Therin.
My not being "pleased" with the trilogy is justified.
You are in a minority.

]Picard was being senseless in 'I, Hugh' of his own choice.
"I, Borg".

And Picard is a victim of the Borg himself, so

crying in the holodeck
was the ultimate result of his ravaging in "The Best of Both Worlds". He's as much a victim as Hugh and Seven of Nine.
 
Your previous post tended to contest the validity of my affirmations, implying they're not proven

I haven't asked you to prove anything

Therin, as I already said "Your previous post tended to contest the validity of my affirmations, implying they're not proven"

I gave reasons (some of them, anyway) why 'Destiny' was underwhelming as a star trek book, Therin.
My not being "pleased" with the trilogy is justified.
You are in a minority.

This may or may not be true.
If true - it has no relevance; I am under no obligation to conform to an opinion, just because it's majoritary; also, an opinion does not become correct simply by being majoritary.

]Picard was being senseless in 'I, Hugh' of his own choice.
"I, Borg".

And Picard is a victim of the Borg himself, so

crying in the holodeck
was the ultimate result of his ravaging in "The Best of Both Worlds". He's as much a victim as Hugh and Seven of Nine.

Picard was a vicim of the borg in BOWB; this does not excuse him callously letting BILLIONS (perhaps TRILLIONS) die in 'I, Hugh'; nor does it excuse him doing nothing but pitying himself in 'Destiny'.
 
Personally, I was satisfied by Destiny in a way that I wouldn't have expected. Frankly, I was amazed that David Mack was able to make the Borg scary again, when they'd been pretty neutered in the wake of everything else. And there were a lot of emotional beats that rang especially true for me, and the ending was one of those. Maybe I'm just too naive, but I would like to think that, given a choice between the death of my body and the death of my principles, I would act the way Geordi did.

Anyway, shifting the topic away from this, I don't often get angry at TrekLit, but something about Death in Winter had me seeing red. A lot of the post-Nemesis TNG books have often seemed off on their characterizations of Picard (and if I'm honest, I think Destiny might be a little guilty of that was well), but I just don't picture him as being so emo over Beverly.
 
The Borg Collective cannot exist without imperialism. It is the ultimate embodiment of an imperial impulse -- because that is all there is to the Collective. There is no art, no commerce, no religion, no desire for peaceful co-existence, no philosophy, no education, no government, no faction, no literature, no society. The Borg Collective is nothing more than the imperial impulse given form. There's no co-existing with the Collective, because beyond its imperialism, there is nothing there to co-exist with.
I agree with your statement, Sci - the borg were made to be evil, in the purest form that can actually exist.

Well, I'm not quite willing to say they were made to be evil. They were, after all, created by a degraded Caeliar consciousness -- the equivalent of someone suffering from a severe mental illness stemming from physical trauma or malnutrition. But, yeah, the Collective simply cannot peacefully co-exist with its neighbors.

Picard, though, in 'I, Hugh', did NOT agree:
He had no trouble treating the borg as a society, a civilization and he had no trouble NOT using a weapon that cound potentially dismantle the collective (perhaps liberating the individual drones).

The impression I got from "I, Borg" was two-fold: That Picard, in examining Hugh, had only just begun to realize/recall (presumably he knew it as Locutus but blocked it out along with other knowledge of the Collective's nature, such as the Queen) that all of the drones in the Collective are the Collective's slaves rather than the Collective's supporters/constituents, and that therefore they're all (or almost all) the equivalent of innocent civilians who must be protected; and that Picard viewed that invasive program as being likely to kill all of the drones rather than simply shut down the Collective (i.e., the slaving consciousness) and liberating the drones.

That's why Picard thought it would constitute genocide -- not because it would destroy the Collective, but because it would kill the Collective's victims.

In doing so, Picard allowed the borg to kill and assimilate trillions in the Delta quadrant and elsewhere - by the time of 'Destiny', this 'elsewhere' translated into ~63 BILLION dead in the alpha/beta quadrants, most of them federation citizens (people Picard was sworn to protect).

I don't think that's fair or accurate. Picard still attacked the Collective at the end of "I, Borg" -- his weapon of choice was simply Hugh's sense of individuality rather than the invasive program. And, given what they knew about how the Collective worked at that time, I'd say that Hugh's individuality -- which they hoped would spread and liberate the drones from the Collective -- would be considered about as potentially effective as the invasive program.

And, in fact, given what we know about how the Collective works in retrospect of the Queen, it seems to me that Hugh's individuality would have been more likely to work. The invasive program relied on the assumption that the Collective's cognitive processes were far more mechanical than organic and incapable of choosing not to try to resolve paradoxes; now that we know about the presence of the Queen, we know that she would likely have simply prevented the program from being further analyzed and just deleted it in order to prevent it from taking over the Collective's processing centers.
 
Picard, though, in 'I, Hugh', did NOT agree:
He had no trouble treating the borg as a society, a civilization and he had no trouble NOT using a weapon that cound potentially dismantle the collective (perhaps liberating the individual drones).
The impression I got from "I, Borg" was two-fold: That Picard, in examining Hugh, had only just begun to realize/recall (presumably he knew it as Locutus but blocked it out along with other knowledge of the Collective's nature, such as the Queen) that all of the drones in the Collective are the Collective's slaves rather than the Collective's supporters/constituents, and that therefore they're all (or almost all) the equivalent of innocent civilians who must be protected; and that Picard viewed that invasive program as being likely to kill all of the drones rather than simply shut down the Collective (i.e., the slaving consciousness) and liberating the drones.

That's why Picard thought it would constitute genocide -- not because it would destroy the Collective, but because it would kill the Collective's victims.

The problem is - throughout 'I, Hugh' all the dilemma was about whether or not to use Hugh to destroy his civilization, the collective.
The consequences of using the paradox on the individual drones were not touched upon - which is why one possibility is that, with the hive mind gone, the drones would have been liberated.

In doing so, Picard allowed the borg to kill and assimilate trillions in the Delta quadrant and elsewhere - by the time of 'Destiny', this 'elsewhere' translated into ~63 BILLION dead in the alpha/beta quadrants, most of them federation citizens (people Picard was sworn to protect).
I don't think that's fair or accurate. Picard still attacked the Collective at the end of "I, Borg" -- his weapon of choice was simply Hugh's sense of individuality rather than the invasive program. And, given what they knew about how the Collective worked at that time, I'd say that Hugh's individuality -- which they hoped would spread and liberate the drones from the Collective -- would be considered about as potentially effective as the invasive program.
'I, Hugh' makes is rather clear that Picard and crew were sure the paradox has a high chance of success, much like they were not confident in the individuality's chances of working against the borg.
Picard choose to use the weapon that, as far as he knew, was far less likely to succeed.

And, in fact, given what we know about how the Collective works in retrospect of the Queen, it seems to me that Hugh's individuality would have been more likely to work. The invasive program relied on the assumption that the Collective's cognitive processes were far more mechanical than organic and incapable of choosing not to try to resolve paradoxes; now that we know about the presence of the Queen, we know that she would likely have simply prevented the program from being further analyzed and just deleted it in order to prevent it from taking over the Collective's processing centers.
If we are to take trek lit into account - where starfleet twice chose to use the paradox or modified paradox versions against the borg (and not once the individuality), and where this paradox twice worked against the collective - it's safe to say the paradox proved rather effective.
 
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