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Have any of the novels ever just made you mad? (

Sorry for double posting.Let me expand upon this some more.
I'm tired of seeing Starfleet being dissed by the so-called warrior races.I'm tired of seeing Starfleet security men(who should have training equal or superior to modern special forces) getting their asses handed to them at every turn.
Maybe in the aftrmath of Destiny,we might see a less cuddly Starfleet but I thought the same after the Dominion war too.
 
Exactly wrong Sci.A technofest was the last thing I wanted.What I wanted(all I wanted)was for Starfleet to be portrayed as a credible fightintg force,staffed and run by competent,cold-eyed officers who would do anything,use anything to survive.In a story billed as the ultimat showdown with Treks ultimate villain,all I was expecting was for Starfleet to be allowed to bring their "A game"(if you know that expression)to the table.Nothing more.

I don't know what trilogy you read, because that's exactly what I did see in Destiny. In fact, I can't imagine Dave Mack depicting Starfleet in any other way. Nobody's ever done a better job depicting Starfleet in hardcore military terms (if you like that sort of thing). As Sci said, we saw a lot of vignettes of Starfleet crews using innovative and often successful tactics against the Borg. I think your problem is that you're too focused on results -- you're assuming that if they didn't win, they can't have been competent. That's dead wrong when dealing with a threat as implacable as the Borg. Maybe I already said this, but a story about the Borg is not a war story, it's a disaster story. If you're trying to evaluate it in terms of a tale of armies vs. armies (or navies vs. navies), you're just missing the point.
 
Exactly wrong Sci.A technofest was the last thing I wanted.What I wanted(all I wanted)was for Starfleet to be portrayed as a credible fightintg force,staffed and run by competent,cold-eyed officers who would do anything,use anything to survive.

"Anything?"

Really?

Is that really in keeping with Star Trek's humanism?

I read Destiny and in Starfleet, I saw a military force that did everything it could to preserve itself without losing the Federation's soul in the process. I saw them bring their A-game.

The simple fact is: You can't beat the Borg. You never could. Trying to beat the Borg is like trying to beat a hurricane; it's just not possible. If you try to fight the Borg, you lose. Violence just doesn't work.

Humanism is not a guarantee that everything will be okay.

So the question is:

How do you stay true to your values knowing that you've lost? How do you be a humanist when you're facing imminent death?

The answer that Destiny provides: You hold on to your values. You stay true to humanism. You spread your belief in pluralism and egalitarianism.
 
... you're assuming that if they didn't win, they can't have been competent. That's dead wrong when dealing with a threat as implacable as the Borg. Maybe I already said this, but a story about the Borg is not a war story, it's a disaster story. If you're trying to evaluate it in terms of a tale of armies vs. armies (or navies vs. navies), you're just missing the point.

Well said!
 
Consider the point well and truly missed then.
Am I to understand that the point of Destiny was that although the Federation was pummeled,our guys get massive brownie points for "listening to thir inner hearts"?

Oh,and everything will be fine,the bad people will be handled by the super-beings who live in the sky.:rolleyes:
How humanist is that exactly?
 
Consider the point well and truly missed then.
Am I to understand that the point of Destiny was that although the Federation was pummeled,our guys get massive brownie points for "listening to thir inner hearts"?

No, the point of Destiny was how important it is not to abandon your principles in the face of death.

Oh,and everything will be fine,the bad people will be handled by the super-beings who live in the sky.:rolleyes:
How humanist is that exactly?

Actually, the whole point of that sequence was that the Caeliar had been wrong, and that only by convincing them to abandon their xenophobia and instead adopt Federation beliefs about pluralism would the Caeliar be saved from inevitable extinction brought upon by their own stagnation. The Federation saved the Caeliar and the Caeliar saved the Federation, and Federation values saved both of them.
 
No, the point was to get rid of the horribly overused and badly handled Borg once and for all.

A side effect was to set up the next crossover.

Everything else was how they did it.
 
Actually, the whole point of that sequence was that the Caeliar had been wrong, and that only by convincing them to abandon their xenophobia and instead adopt Federation beliefs about pluralism would the Caeliar be saved from inevitable extinction brought upon by their own stagnation. The Federation saved the Caeliar and the Caeliar saved the Federation, and Federation values saved both of them.[/QUOTE]

So I was totally wrong to focus my attention on Picard,Riker and the gang.The story was about the guest-star aliens all along.My bad.
Actually all this argument is immaterial,to me anyway.I don't think that I will be continuing with much of the post-Destiny books.
 
Actually, the whole point of that sequence was that the Caeliar had been wrong, and that only by convincing them to abandon their xenophobia and instead adopt Federation beliefs about pluralism would the Caeliar be saved from inevitable extinction brought upon by their own stagnation. The Federation saved the Caeliar and the Caeliar saved the Federation, and Federation values saved both of them.

So I was totally wrong to focus my attention on Picard,Riker and the gang.The story was about the guest-star aliens all along.

Basically, yes. Or, more broadly, about the relationship between the Federation, the Caeliar, and the Borg. And, more specifically, about Erika. David Mack has even said that she's the real star of the Destiny trilogy; really, it's her story.
 
... you're assuming that if they didn't win, they can't have been competent. That's dead wrong when dealing with a threat as implacable as the Borg. Maybe I already said this, but a story about the Borg is not a war story, it's a disaster story. If you're trying to evaluate it in terms of a tale of armies vs. armies (or navies vs. navies), you're just missing the point.

Well said!

Not exactly. It was true about the Borg when they were introduced, but they slowly became the foe you can beat if you shoot at them with a lot of stuff.
 
No, the point was to get rid of the horribly overused and badly handled Borg once and for all.

A side effect was to set up the next crossover.

Everything else was how they did it.

Well, actually, no. Twice.

1) The Borg being in the trilogy was not part of the original commission. The purpose of the trilogy was to have a big crossover event - the first in 7 years, mind you - to release alongside the new Trek film, to match the publicity. The movie was delayed, and after David Mack's choice the Borg did become the center of the trilogy, so you can be forgiven for misapprehending the purpose. But it is a misapprehension.

2) The only reason Typhon Pact was branded as a crossover was that Destiny was so successful. And it isn't even a crossover in the usual sense; the crews don't interact. It's just a branding decision, not a storytelling decision. AND, while we're at it, Destiny didn't even set it up; that honor went to the Destiny follow-up A Singular Destiny.

And besides, I think it's rather cynical to only ascribe marketing motives to any piece of writing. Sure, the timing of Destiny was motivated (ultimately falsely) by a marketing opportunity, but the commission literally only referenced one picture. All the rest was up to David Mack to develop and collaborate on with the editors.

Usually, people write stories because they're stories they want to tell, and because they're stories that people want to read. Destiny was written the way it was because in David Mack's opinion it made the best story that way, because he WANTED to write about the Borg, not to cynically bitchfix other mistakes and create marketing opportunities. Frankly, I think it's a little insulting to suggest otherwise.
 
Am I to understand that the point of Destiny was that although the Federation was pummeled,our guys get massive brownie points for "listening to thir inner hearts"?

Well, my take on it...:

They get "points" for holding onto their sense of virtue, their sense of identity and their sense of duty to the ideals of the Federation. And that's not a clear-cut or easy thing to do in this case, nor was it presented as. Usually the threat isn't at this level - this was it. Everything about the Federation was being threatened - not just its physical elements. Its ideal that survival isn't enough, that you have to live for something positive (the whole idea behind the Luna-class mission - a reminder that the Federation boldly reaches out the hand of peace and explores with a desire to learn, rather than simply living)- that was under attack too. Not just for them, but for us readers. How we view the Federation was put under intense pressure, not just the "actual" Federation in-story. (That's one of the reasons I think so highly of these books- they were an experience that made me confront how I relate to Star Trek as a "universe", not just a fictional tale). Whether the characters fought back with everything, didn't and instead held things like thalaron back to preserve their ideals...either way, in this case they were risking the loss of the Federation, and (on the experience-not-story level) risking our disappointment in them. This is the point of the Borg story arc here, I assume. Take the "Borg problem" and all the thorny issues it entails and finally throw it with all possible force at the Federation and the readers. The Federation was well and truly torn at in the trilogy - not just for them, for us, as these on-going discussions show. And if you'll forgive this rather poetic idea, we, in this discussion and the others we've had, are just like the characters in "A Singular Destiny" and "Losing the Peace". We have to try and put it back together, deal with what we've lost and value tightly what we have left. Because we all lost something. :)

Even if the thalaron and so on could have beaten the Borg (and several people have given good reasons it couldn't), the Federation would still be dead. In a different, less literal form. Maybe more of its people would be alive (though, as discussed, probably not), and maybe that's good enough. But maybe it isn't. This is what the trilogy's characters had to deal with. What they- and we- have to ask ourselves.

I propose: Virtues and a sense of values and identity are more important than mere survival - which is why Starfleet was fighting in the first place. If they were interested in survival at the expense of virtue and personal or social values, why were they there? They had fast starships- why not turn tail, wave goodbye to the rest of the Federation and run at warp 9 for the Bajoran wormhole? They could have done it, easily. But instead, they put those other things I mentioned ahead of survival and acknowledged that there's more to existence than a simple desire to keep living. :) If individual Starfleet officers are willing to do that on the smaller end of the scale, why not the Federation and Starfleet on the larger end, when it comes to a certain point at least (that point being, "you can survive...if you give up your sense of self, your ideals (what Sci called their soul)?" If a Starfleet officer had been told "you can survive...if you turn your back on your sense of duty and your values as a soldier and run off now", I doubt you'd be pleased to hear them say "sure, good idea". So why should the society that produced that soldier be willing to survive at the expense of their duties and ideals- those of peace, stability, understanding?

Having the Federation heroes consider whether they should be prepared to become those cold-eyed anything-to-survive folks you mentioned is essential to a portrayal of this society, because it's not something they'd accept easily. And it doesn't mean they're just going to accept death, and I don't think they were being stupid about it. President Bacco even explicitly said that Picard and co could "throw Federation law out the airlock" and expect full pardons. She was willing to give him the choice. The heroes faced no legal restrictions anymore- Bacco had allowed them the luxury of free choice, all options open.

The Federation places its ideals highly. Now, finally, they had to face on some level the question of whether they valued them more than a chance to seek survival at any cost. And it's not a "give up ideals and live/ don't and die" binary. They fought long and hard to survive. But there comes a point where they have to choose, "do I go for the extreme and survive at any cost, or do I draw the line?". Destiny brought us/them to that point. When La Forge gave his "hell, no" speech (to use one example), he chose the ideals and stayed true to his values. Choosing to do that is risky, because it means that, no, you won't ever be fully, 100% committed to survival. There will be a point that you won't cross, and that prevents you being entirely attached to life. But excessive attachment to life at the expense of everything else doesn't strike me as a positive trait. Strong, very strong attachment, yes. And usually that's enough for the Federation. But in this case they were up against the 1 in a milliion ultimate danger that had pushed past that, to the point where the usual "very strong attachment" wasn't enough. For the first time, they looked like they needed that 100% to have any chance at all. And in this case, the Federation - as a whole and in the case of each individual - had to choose. And whatever they choose, they lose something. Sometimes, you lose. It's inevitable. Which is the point several people here have been trying to make.

But in this story, there was hope. Hernadez, Dax and the Caeliar managed to use those virtues and values to launch a new form of "attack" and spare everyone the worse of the potential consequences. They didn't all die and they did it by using and affirming their ideals, not throwing them overboard in desperation. For a story that saw our heroes hitting the worst of the worst, "Destiny" was very optimistic - as we expect from our Trek. :)

Well, that's how I see it.
 
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2) The only reason Typhon Pact was branded as a crossover was that Destiny was so successful. And it isn't even a crossover in the usual sense; the crews don't interact. It's just a branding decision, not a storytelling decision. AND, while we're at it, Destiny didn't even set it up; that honor went to the Destiny follow-up A Singular Destiny.

That's right. The concept of the Typhon Pact didn't exist yet when Destiny was written. Keith R.A. DeCandido created the Typhon Pact along with Marco Palmieri for A Singular Destiny. And then, after that, the marketing people at Pocket said, "Hey, Destiny sold really well, can you do another big crossover event for 2011?" And in response to that, the editors came up with the plan to do a series of books about the Typhon Pact.


And besides, I think it's rather cynical to only ascribe marketing motives to any piece of writing.

That's right. The marketing decisions just create the opportunities. It's the writers and editors who figure out what to do with them.
 
No, the point was to get rid of the horribly overused and badly handled Borg once and for all.

A side effect was to set up the next crossover.

Everything else was how they did it.

Well, actually, no. Twice.

1) The Borg being in the trilogy was not part of the original commission. The purpose of the trilogy was to have a big crossover event - the first in 7 years, mind you - to release alongside the new Trek film, to match the publicity. The movie was delayed, and after David Mack's choice the Borg did become the center of the trilogy, so you can be forgiven for misapprehending the purpose. But it is a misapprehension.

2) The only reason Typhon Pact was branded as a crossover was that Destiny was so successful. And it isn't even a crossover in the usual sense; the crews don't interact. It's just a branding decision, not a storytelling decision. AND, while we're at it, Destiny didn't even set it up; that honor went to the Destiny follow-up A Singular Destiny.

And besides, I think it's rather cynical to only ascribe marketing motives to any piece of writing. Sure, the timing of Destiny was motivated (ultimately falsely) by a marketing opportunity, but the commission literally only referenced one picture. All the rest was up to David Mack to develop and collaborate on with the editors.

Usually, people write stories because they're stories they want to tell, and because they're stories that people want to read. Destiny was written the way it was because in David Mack's opinion it made the best story that way, because he WANTED to write about the Borg, not to cynically bitchfix other mistakes and create marketing opportunities. Frankly, I think it's a little insulting to suggest otherwise.

Didn't want to bitchfix other mistakes? Making sure that someone can't use them any more in the current continuity sure seems to have fixed them. Using fixed in the same way that a vet "fixes" your dog. The Borg are gone for good, at least O hope so since bringing them back would turn them into more of a comic book villain than they had become. That being said, nobody else can use the Borg now. He's taken the toys away from everyone else.

Cynical to ascribe marketing motives to writing tie-in fiction? Of course marketing ties into it. The whole point is to sell as many books for as much money as possible.

Getting s good story helps you sell more books. Getting a great story helps you sell a lot more. It's not always true but generally speaking good sells better than bad. Great sells better than good. Deciding if a series is one book or two or three is part of the marketing. Hard cover or paperback.

Why were the NuTrek books delayed? Because the producers of the movies have more influence over marketing than the book division does. At this point would you be surprised if the movie people had said that there should be no TOS books instead of just no NuTrel sequels? I wouldn't because from a marketing standpoint the owners of Trek stand to make a lot more money off the movies than the books. It's all about making money. Every letter on every page regardless of being in a script or a paperback.
 
Look. Either you're stating the obvious, which is that people need to make money, which is so trivially true (this is a capitalist society, after all) that it seems dumb to even mention it. Or, you're saying that the people involved in this project didn't care about the story they were telling EXCEPT in that it made money. Which, having hung out on these boards as long as you have, is somewhere between insulting and patently false.

And again, the end result of the trilogy was to kill off the Borg, yes. That doesn't mean the trilogy was written with the purpose of denying anyone else the chance to write a Borg story. The Borg were killed because it made THIS story better NOW, not because of some nebulous, insulting assumption that future authors would fuck it up otherwise.
 
The Borg were already fucked up, to use your phrasing. Wrapping up the Borg story in a great big bow is about the only way they could have done it. Destiny was well written and a great story but it relied on a race we had never heard of before being brought to task by someone we had seen three times.

Of course people need to make money. None of the authors are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it because they get paid. I't luck for them that it's something that they really, really like to do. However, let's not kid ourselves, Dayton wouldn't have done it if all he got out of it was writing the story he WANTED to write. Changes are brought about by editorial, marketing, and many other sources. This may be the story that Dayton wanted to write but it's also the book that CBS and Pocket wanted published. In that scheme of things, what Dayton wants comes in last.
 
Actually, I think what pulled me away from liking Destiny, was that some of the Enterprise crewmembers started to whine about not exploring while in the middle of the Borg's genocide of everything. That totally detracted everything after that, and the story became another Trek story, especially with the Return of the King ending.

During the Federation's final moments, I wished that the author would have spanned the Federation with different bits of various different species doing their end of world scenarios or actions, since thats what I got until the Caeliar waved their magic wand.
 
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Resistance irritated me so much I refused to finish it.

The whole Neyel thing from the Titan books is an excellent example of one of my serious trigger-peeves, a SF concept that would be great in its own original/non-Trek novel--but which totally doesn't work in the Trek universe, where it was shoe-horned in as a gimmick concept. (Hell, the linquistic shifts alone would've taken more than the paltry time the Neyel were separated from the rest of humanity--and that's assuming that they somehow lost all media preserving their former speech patterns. Preposterous!)

The Destiny books annoyed me enough that I didn't bother following the line very far. Great example of Big Boom/Little Brain fiction. blech.
 
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