Finally Watching Discovery - Was I Supoosed to Hate This?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Mysterion, Nov 17, 2018.

  1. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think it's harder to judge DSC for a lot of people because you don't have the context of all the goodness that came after on shows like DS9 and TNG. It's easier to look at a shitty first season of DS9 and forgive it because we look back at the entire body of work and put everything in context. By contrast, DSC is basically half a season's worth of shows, and we have no idea how the rest will play out.
     
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  2. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    DSC S2 might indeed be better than S1... but my opinion that S1 is one of my favorite versions of Star Trek and that I thought it was the best Trek in two decades will still stand. I'm not going to turn around and say, "Maybe you guys were right. Disco Season 1 wasn't that great afterall, what was I thinking?"
     
  3. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm in the same boat. I don't just like DSC S1 from a relative standpoint. I like it "as is" and all on its own merits. If S2 is better, it will be that much better. But it won't detract.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    higher than I expected :)

    In all seriousness, the reason why DIS is harder to judge is because we don't have all of it. Regardless of personal feelings towards particular episodes, it is difficult (not impossible-just difficult) to judge as we don't have as much of the work to actually judge. It's kind of like the law of averages. If a person has a generally positive experience with a product, they are bound to overlook a poor experience. On the other hand, if a person has routinely poor experiences they will tend to focus on that overall negative experience. More so, research has shown that it takes approximately 10 positive experiences to make up for one negative experience.

    What it comes down to is available data. We don't have enough of it to speak about DISCO as DS9 or TNG.
     
  5. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always thought "Duet" overrated. Part if it is the combination of Yulin's theatrically "large" performance and all the tight closeups -- I felt the director needed to either dial Yulin down or pull the damn camera back, one or the other. "Progress," which you cite as "above average," is much better IMO, and the real jewel of DS9's first season.
     
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  6. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As much as I love 'Duet' I agree with you about elements of Yulin's performance. There is a lot of theatrical ham in there.
     
  7. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    Through the tint of glory days shades I guess.
     
  8. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There are two good episodes I enjoyed. When they rescue Sarek and the Groundhog Day one. The former actually helps explain Sarek’s displeasure with Spock about him going to the Federation which is fun to finally see and the latter is just a entertaining episode.
    Besides that, the show is a bit of a mess but I’m hopeful Pike and co. Will make season 2 better.
     
  9. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I missed "Duet" in first-run, as I had already lost interest in S1 at that point. That said, I agree that it's overrated. I distinctly remember watching it for the first time on DVD, waiting to have my mind blown, and being pretty underwhelmed. Probably just because expectations had been set so impossibly high.

    It's not that I didn't like it...not at all...I just didn't view it as an instant classic.
     
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  10. Reyman

    Reyman Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't see much point in comparing first season Discovery to other first season Trek. All other Trek were mostly made up of standalone episodes whereas Discovery led with the Klingon war arc.

    A better comparison would be to compare Discoveries Klingon arc to Enterprises Xindi arc, or DS9s Dominion arc. But that isn't a great comparison either as Discovery didnt have the benefit of dropping fully fleshed out characters into a major story arc. Best to try just enjoy S1 Discovery for what it is.
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Admiral

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    I've tried twice to get through Discovery season one, both times bogging down around episode 12. From my POV, it is just a dull and unimaginative slog with no sense of adventure or optimism.
     
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  12. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ENT's characters didn't get a third dimension (or even second, in some cases) until the Xindi arc, making it a good comparison. Both were flawed and messy, and have the aura of them making it up as they went along. But both were enjoyable.
     
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  13. Rahul

    Rahul Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have a weird, but very strong love for TNG season 1. Even though a lot of it is pretty awful, there are just SO many great moments in it - some great episodes ('11001001', 'Datalore'), to just how amazing bonkers some of the ideas in it were: The Traveller, Farpoint station, the crystaline entity, the creature that killed Yar. It's not exactly good. But I really enjoy it.

    Generally, I like a show when I really love some parts of it and can tolerate the rest. I enjoy a show that has mostly mediocre episodes but 1 truly amazing episode more than a show where every episode is just "good". Even if the latter has a better "average". I much more enjoy to see the great stuff, even if it's only few and far between. For example I'm a big fan of Dr. Who, but I think they average at around ~1 great episode per season, and the rest is pretty mediocre-to-bad. But this one episode is often good enough to make me like the entire show! The same holds IMO mostly true for Star Trek in general.

    Interestingly, not. In most Trek series (TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT) the second season wasn't really a big improvement over S1: They usually continued the same style and problems. It's usually the third season where they truly find their footing.

    It's therefore interesting that DIS has apparently changed so much already, just by judging from the trailers for S2 and the Short Treks. Which is kind of amazing, and keeps me coming back.

    Because - in my opinion - DIS season 1 was probably the weakest first season of any Trek spin-off shows. At least it was the one I liked the least (ENT S1 wasn't great either - but it felt more like 'Star Trek' overall). But, just judging from the look of it, DIS season 2 could already become much better than most other Trek season 2's! And that's what makes me looking forward to it. S1 had A LOT wrong with it. But it was also a behind-the-scenes nightmare, so there's good reasons for that. But if the creators really managed to adapt this fast into the right direction, I'm pretty optimistic about the future of DIS inparticular and Trek in general.
     
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  14. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I mean, I'm critical of Discovery, but I don't hate it. I seem very critical though for two reasons:

    1. It's just easier - for me anyway - to talk about the flaws in something than it is to expound the reasons I enjoy it. Thus even something I consider "good but flawed" will probably have more complaints than praise by a 2-1 margin.

    2. My feelings about the first season soured a lot because I think they screwed the pooch in the last three episodes. Early on I was feeling the season was flawed, but showed promise. But when the "mystery box" finally opened I was left very disappointed because the payoff wasn't really there - at least for me. Of course, this keeps with Trek tradition - two-parters almost always have flaccid endings - but it still retroactively decreased my enjoyment of what came before.
     
  15. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    On the topic of TNG S1, I agree to some extent and feel the same way. Despite some horrific flaws, there's something charming and different about that season...not to mention very nostalgic. That said, I can't back you up on Datalore, which is one of my most-hated episodes in the franchise. I do think that 11001001, E@F, The Big Goodbye, Conspiracy, A Matter of Honor, and We'll Always Have Paris are all pretty great.

    In terms of your DSC S1 analysis...I'm sure you know I oppose you there, but what you've said is extremely reasonable and for the most part true. It just comes down to a matter of taste about the final product, which resonated with me and not as much with you. Either way, I think we both agree that S2 looks like it has the potential to be a significant improvement !
     
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  16. Jadeb

    Jadeb Commodore Commodore

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    (Some spoilers below, in case OP is still working through the season.)

    I got reeeeaaalllllly worried when they freed the Tardigrade. Partly because it's a familiar Trek trope we've seen before, but mostly because it just sort of happens. Suddenly people grow a conscience, because that's what happens in Star Trek. It isn't earned in story -- there's no real precipitating event -- but it is treated as a Major Star Trek Moment. The writers need to move the chess pieces and want a certain narrative beat, so they take a shortcut to make it happen. Even the cartoon Grinch gets a better motivation for his about-face, and that whole story is only 26 minutes.

    When the writers are willing to compromise the story like that, it bodes poorly for the rest of the season. Sure enough, we saw the same thing (but worse) in the finale. We need to wrap this up, folks, so let's give L'Rell a bomb.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
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  17. seigezunt

    seigezunt Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Best comment. Somebody on this website once used the term "Straw Trek," which nails it.

    That said, I agree with what others said about this being the best first season since TOS. I never once had to wince through an episode and think "well, I should stick this out, it's Star Trek," and unlike all of the 90s and beyond shows, I'm eager to see the second season. All the others I dropped and only came back to in reruns, and then not even Voyager.

    I think all in all, I found it a very good if flawed start. It took some turns that I would not have, and dropped some very promising threads. But in the end it still excited me. I haven't whooped at an episode climax in a very, very long time.
     
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  18. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Spock grew a beard. That's a virtual guarantee of a quality jump in the Star Trek universe... ;)
     
  19. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The logic around how the bomb worked - along with why the Federation was so sure it would stop the assault on Earth, why L'Rell's holding of the Klingon Empire hostage worked, and everything else in the last half of the final episode - was so stupid that we scarcely even pay attention to L'Rell's sudden reverse heel turn.

    I mean, L'Rell spends what - five episodes locked up in the brig, basically doing nothing but talking to whoever comes in to see her? There was ample opportunity to slowly crack the edifice of her character, sowing doubt in T'Kuvma's vision. But Discovery presents her as a fanatic right up until the last 20 minutes. It's really inexplicable considering they were pretty careful to drop little hints regarding Tyler/Voq and MU Lorca all the way through.

    Unless, that is, they either had no idea how they were going to wrap up the season until the final episode, or CBS vetoed their intended closing arc, leading to a very hasty rewrite.
     
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  20. Jadeb

    Jadeb Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, completely bizarre. At least when Burnham gets to change the entire course of the war by tipping off Sarek that genocide is bad, it's because they're trying to give her character the Big, Defining Burnham Moment. It doesn't work for me at all, and comes at a terrible price for Sarek, but I can see why they did it. But wasting all that time with L'Rell in the cell is inexplicable, except as another example of the writers' clumsiness in moving the chess pieces. (Or, hopefully, some terrible behind-the-scenes problems.).

    Let's hope they do better for Spock and Pike.