Finally Watching Discovery - Was I Supoosed to Hate This?

[Jadeb]

I put spoiler warnings several posts ago, so hopefully Mysterion stopped there.

 

[Jadeb]

If Drastic Measures is anything to go by, and they do decide to bring Prime Lorca into the show in some capacity, morally gray might be a good description of the other version.

I’m a little leery of that, because it seems like Isaacs might end up playing an inferior version of his original character. But maybe there’s something interesting in a good man tainted by his time in the MU. Hard to imagine him not being the captain, though.

If I were Isaacs and realized Lorca was the most well-received part of season one, I’d be tempted to leave well enough alone. But hopefully he doesn’t care enough about us Trekkies to let that influence his decision.

 

[Tuskin38]

Prime Lorca was pretty similar to Mirror Lorca in the book, but just not as evil.

 

[feek61]

Please don't call me "brother"

And if you have some data that indicates that the point I was making; that the show's detractors are in the considerable minority despite being relentlessly vocal, I'd welcome it. Otherwise, you're only sharing your own opinion here. Which is absolutely fine...but don't try to dismiss what I said simply with a cliched rant about "bad writing."

I wasn't calling you brother (as I'm sure you know); I was noting how your cliched "1%" dogma was old and tired.

If you really read and understood my post. I believe it was clear that I was not speaking as some representative of the majority but expressing my own opinion when I said "I hate Q . . .", " . . .to each his own." "I would prefer . . ." "It just comes across (to me)", "I tired of the . . ." "not the characters I care about. Again, to each his own." But, to your point, you are the one that threw out some made-up, random, inaccurate percentage; not me. I am only dismissing your obviously fabricated percentage, not your opinion. I will say that despite your assertion, I was not ranting about bad writing but if it's true; it's not really a cliche, is it? I'm happy you think it's great writing and are enjoying the stories; I really wish I felt the same way but I respect intelligent, character driven stories with good plots and I'm sorry, STD is not it. I can only hope season 2 is better (to clarify, not speaking for any minority, or majority here) .

 

[fireproof78]

You don't expect a major mirror universe character to cross over and operate within 'our' universe long term.

I don't? Why not? We've seen the Mirror Universe cross over several times to support their war efforts, even more so in comics and books and the like. So, I see no problem with this concept. In fact, I rather like the idea of delving in to multiple universes and what would happen if counterparts engaged in other universes. Stargate did this very well in point of fact, as did Farscape though, not in a Mirror Universe way but in a duplicate way.

 

[Noname Given]

The logic around how the bomb worked - along with why the Federation was so sure it would stop the assault on Earth, why L'Rell's holding of the Klingon Empire hostage worked, and everything else in the last half of the final episode - was so stupid that we scarcely even pay attention to L'Rell's sudden reverse heel turn.

I mean, L'Rell spends what - five episodes locked up in the brig, basically doing nothing but talking to whoever comes in to see her? There was ample opportunity to slowly crack the edifice of her character, sowing doubt in T'Kuvma's vision. But Discovery presents her as a fanatic right up until the last 20 minutes. It's really inexplicable considering they were pretty careful to drop little hints regarding Tyler/Voq and MU Lorca all the way through.

Unless, that is, they either had no idea how they were going to wrap up the season until the final episode, or CBS vetoed their intended closing arc, leading to a very hasty rewrite.

Agree with you there. I liked a lot of ST: D S1 - but the overall sub-plot of the Klingon/Fed War (and that's all it was) was just badly handled throughout the Season's run; ESPECIALLY its so called 'resolution'.

(In the end do like they saved and are going to use 'Mirror Georgiou' as a Section 31 operative - but that's a little guilty pleasure as I've always liked Michelle Yeoh as I'm also into Asian Cinema.)

 

[Vger23]

I wasn't calling you brother (as I'm sure you know); I was noting how your cliched "1%" dogma was old and tired.

If you really read and understood my post. I believe it was clear that I was not speaking as some representative of the majority but expressing my own opinion when I said "I hate Q . . .", " . . .to each his own." "I would prefer . . ." "It just comes across (to me)", "I tired of the . . ." "not the characters I care about. Again, to each his own." But, to your point, you are the one that threw out some made-up, random, inaccurate percentage; not me. I am only dismissing your obviously fabricated percentage, not your opinion. I will say that despite your assertion, I was not ranting about bad writing but if it's true; it's not really a cliche, is it? I'm happy you think it's great writing and are enjoying the stories; I really wish I felt the same way but I respect intelligent, character driven stories with good plots and I'm sorry, STD is not it. I can only hope season 2 is better (to clarify, not speaking for any minority, or majority here) .

Old and tired dogma? The irony is awesome.

I hear ya though. I do.

 

[Rahul]

The problem is: Out of 14 mirror universe episodes, there have been exactly one and a half good ones: The original "Mirror, Mirror"(TOS), and the second part of ENTs' "In a mirror Darkly, part 2" is about half-good - but that's purely for the schlock- and nostalgia-factor, seeing everyone chewing the scenery and having a faithfull modern recreation of the 60s Trek played straight is kind of amazingly bonkers!

Every other entry has been mediocre at best. So it's really not "too much" MU. It's simply that MU episodes usually come with a BIG downgrade in quality. Whereas Q still had something like one good for every two bland episodes later on.

I loved DS9's Mirror Universe episodes in the '90s.* And "Mirror, Mirror" is up there among my favorite TOS episodes. So I didn't consider DSC going into the Mirror Universe to be a demerit.

* Okay, more specifically, I like DS9's first three entries into the Mirror Universe: "Crossover", "Through the Looking Glass", and "Shattered Mirror". That plays like DS9's Official Mirror Universe Trilogy.

When it comes to "Resurrection" where Mirror Bariel shows up in the Prime Universe (so I don't know if I even really count it as a Mirror Universe episode) and the shitty, unnecessary conclusion to the MU Saga that was "The Emperor's New Cloak", not so much. "The Emperor's New Cloak" shows why you don't do a fourth part to a "trilogy". But those are things I don't hold against DSC. DSC wasn't dealing with the baggage of DS9's last two Mirror Universe entries. It had the Terran Empire in its prime (no pun intended).

You know, I can get behind that. I'm not a fan of the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes - but they weren't ouright "bad" or anything, I just didn't really care for them, that's why I put them in the "mediocre" territory.. The idea behind "Crossover" was actually kind of interesting - but at the same time it IMO had many problems.

One thing is, for me it almost felt like as if this (super flawed characters, humanity dominated by alien invaders) was the story the DS9 writers actually wanted to tell, and that they felt kind of box-ed in in the pony-and-fairytale-brightness of the 'Star Trek'-universe (IMO nuBSG confirmed that later), so much so that they were writing up against it at every chance. But then this felt like a much more "usual", say even mundane and generic sci-fi story set-up.

Another thing is, that the entire political situation of the MU was so different in DS9 - the entire history and populations diverging so, so much - that it became completely illogical that the same people were not just born, but existed on the same station at all. It really was a completely different "alternate" universe, not so much a "mirror" one anymore.

The MU works IMO best as a "dark mirror" to the main universe - with a somewhat similar history, but opposite attributes. The DS9 MU episodes weren't exactly that - they more felt like "holodeck"-episodes or "altered timeline"-episodes, where the writers wanted to try out a completely different genre than the one they were actually writing for.

 

[feek61]

Old and tired dogma? The irony is awesome.

I hear ya though. I do.

Nice! Way to side-step and avoid the issue by misdirection; you should be a politician!

Anyway, moving on, I am curious to hear from the original poster regarding which episode he is on and what his thoughts are. I hope he is still enjoying it.

 

[seigezunt]

I think they took the mirror universe, which really is not a concept that holds up under much examination, and had fun with it. I will admit I was disappointed in terms of what it meant for the nuance of the Lorca character. Same for how the Klingon war was handled. So there were flaws, but I still enjoyed it enormously overall.

 

[Rahul]

I think they took the mirror universe, which really is not a concept that holds up under much examination, and had fun with it. I will admit I was disappointed in terms of what it meant for the nuance of the Lorca character. Same for how the Klingon war was handled. So there were flaws, but I still enjoyed it enormously overall.

Yeah, I think DIS actually handled the mirror part of the Mirror Universe pretty well!

My main complaint is that they tried to be so super-serious, dark n' gritty about a concept that is inherintly goofy. The entire arc would have worked IMO a lot better with fewer heavy-handed speeches, one or two episodes less, and if they would have stayed away from going full schlock - cannibalism, "kill-the-badguy"-storytelling and "save the entire multiverse" was all a bit too much. Especially considering they tried to be so utterly serious about it, instead of embracing the camp-yness in a more fun way.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the Mirror Universe is done well as seriousness as Trek has worn on. The comics treated it with an interesting mixture of seriousness and silliness but I really appreciated the scenes between Spock and Mirror Spock in a mind-meld battle.

I think that Stamets makes the Mirror Universe work in Discovery.

 

[Jadeb]

The entire arc would have worked IMO a lot better with fewer heavy-handed speeches, one or two episodes less, and if they would have stayed away from going full schlock - cannibalism, "kill-the-badguy"-storytelling and "save the entire multiverse" was all a bit too much.

I felt this way about both the MU and the Klingon war storylines. Hope they dial it back for season 2.

 

[DarKush]

You know, I can get behind that. I'm not a fan of the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes - but they weren't ouright "bad" or anything, I just didn't really care for them, that's why I put them in the "mediocre" territory.. The idea behind "Crossover" was actually kind of interesting - but at the same time it IMO had many problems.

One thing is, for me it almost felt like as if this (super flawed characters, humanity dominated by alien invaders) was the story the DS9 writers actually wanted to tell, and that they felt kind of box-ed in in the pony-and-fairytale-brightness of the 'Star Trek'-universe (IMO nuBSG confirmed that later), so much so that they were writing up against it at every chance. But then this felt like a much more "usual", say even mundane and generic sci-fi story set-up.

Another thing is, that the entire political situation of the MU was so different in DS9 - the entire history and populations diverging so, so much - that it became completely illogical that the same people were not just born, but existed on the same station at all. It really was a completely different "alternate" universe, not so much a "mirror" one anymore.

The MU works IMO best as a "dark mirror" to the main universe - with a somewhat similar history, but opposite attributes. The DS9 MU episodes weren't exactly that - they more felt like "holodeck"-episodes or "altered timeline"-episodes, where the writers wanted to try out a completely different genre than the one they were actually writing for.

You make some really good points here. I did like the early DS9 Mirror Universe episodes, well, the first one, and then the one with Mirror Jennifer, but after that they weren't as good. I didn't care much for the final episode at all. And when watching them, it struck me that the Cardassians and Klingons don't act that much differently than the Prime Universe which undercuts the premise of it being a "Mirror" universe. Albeit they've never used that term at all in the MU episodes. Though I caught that Burnham said 'mirror' something, perhaps regarding ships or something.

Overall the DS9 MU episodes did feel more like alternate timeline episodes, especially the further along they went.

 

[Rahul]

You make some really good points here. I did like the early DS9 Mirror Universe episodes, well, the first one, and then the one with Mirror Jennifer, but after that they weren't as good. I didn't care much for the final episode at all. And when watching them, it struck me that the Cardassians and Klingons don't act that much differently than the Prime Universe which undercuts the premise of it being a "Mirror" universe. Albeit they've never used that term at all in the MU episodes. Though I caught that Burnham said 'mirror' something, perhaps regarding ships or something.

Overall the DS9 MU episodes did feel more like alternate timeline episodes, especially the further along they went.

I really liked the original premise of TOS that the Mirror Universe didn't actually had "evil" characters - but rather, an evil society. A bad Empire, that brought out the worst in people, but that the people in it are still the same, just with opposite ideological indoctrination: Kirk, the most by-the-book humanist in the prime universe, was the most fanatic believer in the MU ideology. Spock had the same outsider role, and thus was the one who was able to see the flaws in the MU ideology the most. All of them were essentially the same people - just being formed by an evil ideology.

This is actually the one part I truly loved about the MU in DIS:
How the anti-Federation alliance had klingons that weren't exactly good, but very much the klingons we know, who just happened to be on the "good" side. Also, it was pretty ballsy that the alien alliance really was portrayed as the "good" guys, counter the "bad" terrans. But all of the, still were essentially the same characters - especially Voq, but also Sarek - just set on the opposite side of ideologies in the conflict.

That's IMO a much more interesting apporach than "everybody now play totally, chew-the-scenery irredeemable evil" - which is sadly how the MU normally gets portrayed and, sadly, also Lorca and MU Georgiou turned out to be.

 

[DarKush]

I really liked the original premise of TOS that the Mirror Universe didn't actually had "evil" characters - but rather, an evil society. A bad Empire, that brought out the worst in people, but that the people in it are still the same, just with opposite ideological indoctrination: Kirk, the most by-the-book humanist in the prime universe, was the most fanatic believer in the MU ideology. Spock had the same outsider role, and thus was the one who was able to see the flaws in the MU ideology the most. All of them were essentially the same people - just being formed by an evil ideology.

This is actually the one part I truly loved about the MU in DIS:
How the anti-Federation alliance had klingons that weren't exactly good, but very much the klingons we know, who just happened to be on the "good" side. Also, it was pretty ballsy that the alien alliance really was portrayed as the "good" guys, counter the "bad" terrans. But all of the, still were essentially the same characters - especially Voq, but also Sarek - just set on the opposite side of ideologies in the conflict.

That's IMO a much more interesting apporach than "everybody now play totally, chew-the-scenery irredeemable evil" - which is sadly how the MU normally gets portrayed and, sadly, also Lorca and MU Georgiou turned out to be.

That is another way to look at, describe the MU. As the characters being warped by the ideology more so than just being evil. I've always been of the mind that they were evil instead. But your description does explain Lorca's lieutenant, who was bad in both universes.

 

[Rahul]

That is another way to look at, describe the MU. As the characters being warped by the ideology more so than just being evil. I've always been of the mind that they were evil instead. But your description does explain Lorca's lieutenant, who was bad in both universes.

"Just evil" certainly is how it's portrayed most of the time... Which is IMO the less interesting apporach of the two, and probably also the reasony why so many of the MU episodes feel so same-y: "Just let everyone be evil and betray and fight each other".

 

[Jam3s1701]

Yes you were, didn't you know according to the gatekeepers and some members of the fandom we are all meant to hate it.

 

[fireproof78]

How the anti-Federation alliance had klingons that weren't exactly good, but very much the klingons we know, who just happened to be on the "good" side. Also, it was pretty ballsy that the alien alliance really was portrayed as the "good" guys, counter the "bad" terrans. But all of the, still were essentially the same characters - especially Voq, but also Sarek - just set on the opposite side of ideologies in the conflict.

That is one of the more interesting facets of it, for sure.

I personally don't think Georgiou or Lorca were always moustache twirling, but I can see the irritation with that type of evil. But, I love classic tales of good vs. evil so the MU has always appealed in several forms to me.

 

[Cyrus]

the shitty, unnecessary conclusion to the MU Saga that was "The Emperor's New Cloak", not so much.

While that was a rather disappointing ending to the DS9 mirror universe arc it had a couple of good things in it:
It was dedicated to Jerome Bixby, the writer who wrote the original TOS mirror episode.
Michael Dorn and Andrew Robinson seemed to greatly enjoy chewing scenery playing the evil version of their characters.